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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Thu, 09 Apr 2015 19:56:20 GMT
Oh we tried to help. And yes we asked. We were very rudely treated. On and
off list. (Or, I was anyhow.)

I'm all for being positive, and I generally am, but I am also not
interested in perpetuating a revisionist narrative about how apache has
been great to work with. I have always maintained a professional dialogue
even when receiving personal attacks and threats. The records show that and
I can sleep at night.

Can that change? I continue to hope so. Not even a month ago I was harassed
by a member. I'll be at apachecon to discuss f2f since email had proven to
be a terrible medium so far.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 12:47 PM Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org> wrote:

> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now, but I
> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later (some
> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
>
> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not constructive.
> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the sake
> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about others
> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> negative towards.
>
> Another angle:
> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your views are
> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF" make it
> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just makes
> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to contribute to
> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where people
> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email tone
> positive even when you disagree.
>
> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers (we
> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one up.
> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> instance.
> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a collaboration
> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained, but
> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although we
> decided not to stick with it).
>
> Why can we not use Github issues?
> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> hasn't happened yet.
> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do issue
> trackers count as "data"?
> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since that's
> meant for cross-project discussion.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is
> > > offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why
> *I*
> > > dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> Stack
> > > Overflow survey).
> > >
> > >
> > Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the tone
> > you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a personal
> attack
> > on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments only
> > reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't agree with
> me,
> > because we're still here.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> > > > influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
> > > > participation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There are
> > clearly
> > > people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> fight
> > > the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project,
> and
> > > I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> > >
> > >
> > > > To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> they
> > > > are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose
> > > > changes that work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> > rules
> > > aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> > > > Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some
> > > > individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> > > > voices are usually drowned out.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that we
> > donated
> > > the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> complained
> > > about so many times by our community members who have followed us since
> > we
> > > started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the people who
> > feel
> > > like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to convince
> > > everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since
> > your
> > > organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of
> > the
> > > JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> haven't
> > > forked yet.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > Ross
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >   Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> > > > at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> > > >
> > > > Marcel,
> > > >    I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> > > > to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> > > > developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> > > > understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> > like
> > > I layout in my email?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <
> csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > > > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > > > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > > > > > Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > > > > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> this
> > > > > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache hate
> > > > GitHub
> > > > > with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough problems
> > > > > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love to
> > > > > dump JIRA
> > > > and
> > > > > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> > > > > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> > > > > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> > > > > > Foundation,
> > > > to
> > > > > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> > > > > > community
> > > > they
> > > > > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> > > > > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> > > > > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One
> thing
> > > > > that I think we
> > > > don't
> > > > > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> how
> > > > these
> > > > > stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF cared
> > > > > about
> > > > such
> > > > > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> > > > > > <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
problem
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > clearly
> > > > > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand
this.
> > > > > > > They
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> > > > > > > nor anything relative to the mobile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
most
> > > > > > > of
> > > > them
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > native :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > > > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know
all the
> > > > details
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an
idea of
> the
> > > > > > > > work
> > > > > > done
> > > > > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I
don't
> think
> > > > > > > > I am
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > only one.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can
be as
> > > > > > > > good as
> > > > > > native
> > > > > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I
try to do
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > apps I
> > > > > > > > work on!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most
is the
> > > > > > > > > graphics
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's
a few
> > > > > > > > > possible
> > > > > > reasons:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps
they saw 3
> > > > > > > > > years
> > > > > ago.
> > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those
first apps
> > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > hang
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that
smooth,
> > > > > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps
on modern
> > > > > > > > > WebKit views,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once
that
> > > > > > > > > recommended
> > > > > using
> > > > > > > CSS
> > > > > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left".
That changed
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > whole
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much
better
> because
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > it. I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay
out tips like
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > making
> > > > > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps
just port
> > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > iOS-style
> > > > > > > > > design straight to Android without considering
that Android
> > > > > > > > > users
> > > > > > > expect
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's
much to do
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks
<
> > > > > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take
is that the
> > > > > > > > > >score
> > > > is
> > > > > > low
> > > > > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are
Windows users and
> > > > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > default
> > > > > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
unconventional
> -
> > > > > > > > > >Git
> > > > > > Bash,
> > > > > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command
driven
> > > > > > > > > >development, and
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > >full
> > > > > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically
improving
> > > > > > > > > >this and
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known,
I hope those
> > > > > > > > > >survey
> > > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel
<
> > > > > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations
and most of the
> > > > > developers
> > > > > > > > > >using
> > > > > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers
itself) are knowing
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything
about the
> > > > > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about
the asynchronos
> > > > > communitcation
> > > > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely
ok, but if
> anything
> > > > > special
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then
they have a
> problem.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some
JS
> frameworks/libs
> > > > which
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >not
> > > > > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't
name anyone of
> > > > > > > > > >> that
> > > > :-)
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't
see the real power
> > > > > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem
making
> > > > > > > > > >> developers
> > > > > happy?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile
Development,
> > > > > > > > > >> because
> > > > > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality
of most Cordova
> > > > > applications
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting
a Cordova
> > > > application
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going
to end up
> > > > > > > > > >> re-writing it
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing
it
> > > > > > > > > >> natively
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going
away any time
> > > > > > > > > >> soon, and
> > > > > > both
> > > > > > > > > >those
> > > > > > > > > >> technologies share the same property
that anyone can
> > > > > > > > > >> create a
> > > > > > shitty
> > > > > > > > > >> website.  We've been called the Drupal
of development
> for
> > > > > > > > > >> a
> > > > > > reason,
> > > > > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took
it as an insult
> > > > > > > > > >> because I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal
project).  I
> > > > > > > > > >> don't
> > > > > think
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > >should
> > > > > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey,
since most
> > > > > > > > > >> developers
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > > > > >> anyway.  We should just make sure that
what we're
> > > > > > > > > >> releasing
> > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari,
Leo
> > > > > > > > > ><leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow
Developer
> Survey
> > > > > > > > > >> > (
> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> > > ).
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > > > > >> > Salesforce           73.2%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Visual Basic        72.0%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Wordpress         68.2%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Matlab                 65.6%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Sharepoint         62.8%
> > > > > > > > > >> > LAMP                    62.2%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Perl                        59.2%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Cordova               58.8%
> > > **************
> > > > > > > > > >> > Coffeescript       54.7%
> > > > > > > > > >> > Other                    57.3%
> > > > > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with
the language or tech
> > > > > > > > > >> > but
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing
to do so.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is?
 Here are some
> > > > > > > > > >> > possible
> > > > > > answers.
> > > > > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of
these are true, but
> > > > > > > > > >> > rather
> > > > > > looking
> > > > > > > > > >for
> > > > > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard
developers express
> > > > > > frustration
> > > > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > *        There is no problem -
unclear question led to
> > the
> > > > > > answer
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > *        The problem is really
about creating native
> > apps
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > *        Cordova CLI has a quality
problem
> > (learnability |
> > > > > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > o   Too hard to set up development
environment
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > o   The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > o   Not enough learning material
(documentation,
> > articles,
> > > > > > books)
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > o   Too many bugs
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > o   Changes too frequently
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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