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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:56:52 GMT
I used your provenance first but clarification did come with the typically
boogyman stuff I hear. Yes those things are ridiculous as is you ignoring
my earlier emails and only responding to that. As usual.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:53 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:

> You said:
>
>   1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code) or worse
>   2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>
> neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
> of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
> and #2 is a complete strawman.
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>        http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
> >> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
> >> or
> >>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>
> >>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>>>> but I
> >>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>>>> (some
> >>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>> constructive.
> >>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
the
> >>>>> sake
> >>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>> others
> >>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>> views are
> >>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>>>> make it
> >>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
just
> >>>>> makes
> >>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>> contribute to
> >>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >>>>> tone
> >>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>> (we
> >>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
one
> >>>>> up.
> >>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>>>> instance.
> >>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>> collaboration
> >>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>> but
> >>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
that
> >>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>> issue
> >>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>
> >>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> >>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>> of use.
> >>>>
> >>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>> that's
> >>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
> >>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
it
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring
to (and
> >>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't
in the
> >>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on
the
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a
personal
> >>>>>> attack
> >>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't
agree
> >>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings
no additional
> >>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
contributions
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
 There are
> >>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've
had to
> >>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with
this
> >>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
leave.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things
are the way
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people
to
> >>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing
just that.
> >>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging
(there are
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category,
but their
> >>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret
that we
> >>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has
been
> >>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
us
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and
the people
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going
to
> >>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle
that we
> >>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what
we want, while
> >>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently
can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million
cordova
> >>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use
github with
> the
> >>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
in
> place
> >>>>>> like
> >>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of
Github.
> >>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR
anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest
and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github
web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments.
we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that
be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have
enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.
 I would love to
> >>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move
to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made
it less
> >>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an
Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out
from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should
not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this
way, us leaving
> >>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd
be allowed to
> >>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi
existed.  One
> >>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the
ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that
the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this
more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before
the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't
understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript,
the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile
applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B
B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire
<
> >>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought
we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have,
at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I
use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile
web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and
that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman
<Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception
the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs
Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off
Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since
then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard
enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible
to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an
article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties
like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts
so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova
docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions.
Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without
considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not
sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT,
Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting
survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants
are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows
is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal
command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team
is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more
well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08
AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some
situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova
developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the
hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything
about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this
is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes
wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that
there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices.
No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that
they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy
UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April
2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova
have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated
form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and
the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If
you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're
probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android
shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with
that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks
aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same
property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called
the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called
that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited
a bad Drupal project).  I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say
in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just
make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03
AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from
a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce         
 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic       
72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab             
   65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint         62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP               
    62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl               
        59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova            
  58.8%
> >>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript       54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other              
     57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing
with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in
continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the
problem is?  Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that
any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those
who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no
problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem
is really about creating native
> >>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI
has a quality problem
> >>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set
up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI
is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning
material (documentation,
> >>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
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>
>

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