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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 16:12:12 GMT
At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very professional
non answer dodge there Jim!

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:

> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> to listen.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> > too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> despite
> > github offering to donate to apache.
> >
> > Now maybe this is possible?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> >> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>
> >>>        http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>
> >>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>> (code).
> >>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >>> or
> >>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >>> most
> >>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
now,
> >>>>>> but I
> >>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit
later
> >>>>>> (some
> >>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do
it
> >>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not
for
> the
> >>>>>> sake
> >>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things
about
> >>>>>> others
> >>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are
being
> >>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though
your
> >>>>>> views are
> >>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the
ASF"
> >>>>>> make it
> >>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >>>>>> makes
> >>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one
where
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep
the
> email
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>>> (we
> >>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us
set one
> >>>>>> up.
> >>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
shared
> >>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been
a
> >>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but
do
> >>>>>> issue
> >>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>>> of use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start,
since
> >>>>>> that's
> >>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you
disagree, it
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring
to (and
> >>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question
wasn't in the
> >>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based
on the
> >>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make
a
> personal
> >>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these
comments
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't
agree
> >>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN
TECH) <
> >>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings
no
> additional
> >>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
contributions
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
 There are
> >>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line.
We've had to
> >>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with
this
> >>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
leave.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things
are the way
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with
people to
> >>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different
foundation
> whose
> >>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty
doing just
> that.
> >>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging
(there are
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category,
but
> their
> >>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I
regret that we
> >>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way"
has been
> >>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have
followed us
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now,
and the people
> >>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never
going to
> >>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing,
especially
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking
various
> parts
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle
that we
> >>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what
we want,
> while
> >>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face
:-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently
can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a
million cordova
> >>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to
use github with
> the
> >>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and
archiving in
> place
> >>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage
of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit
PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest
and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github
web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments.
we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers
that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already
have enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.
 I would love
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the
move to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and
made it less
> >>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't
an Apache
> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move
out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should
not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub
this way, us
> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because
we'd be allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi
existed.  One
> >>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate
the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought
that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate
this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time
before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers
don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know
Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile
applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A
335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc
Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought
we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we
have, at least, an idea of
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools
I use work and I don't
> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think
mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work,
and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work,
we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler
Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's
perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS
vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias
off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much
since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying
hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible
to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across
an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties
like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and
reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova
docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions.
Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without
considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm.
Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM
PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting
survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the
participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows
is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt,
terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft
team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes
more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08
AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy
in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova
developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under
the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know
anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this
is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something
goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that
there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile
devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is,
that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create
sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch,
8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova
have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most
hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app,
and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.
 If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're
probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android
shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK
with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks
aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the
same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been
called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called
that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited
a bad Drupal project).  I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers
say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just
make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015
at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is
from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce     
     73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic   
    72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress      
  68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab         
       65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint     
   62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP           
        62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl           
            59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova        
      58.8%
> >>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript   
   54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other          
         57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are
developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest
in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what
the problem is?  Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting
that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those
who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is
no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem
is really about creating native
> >>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova
CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to
set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command
CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning
material (documentation,
> >>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too
frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
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