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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Thu, 09 Apr 2015 16:12:33 GMT
How about the community insist on a positive and constructive tone rather than this inflammatory
and miss-informed rhetoric.

There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional influence. What matters
around here is constructive contributions and participation.

To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are and, if they don't
fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes that work.

Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead it has focused
on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals who certainly do not fit into this
category, but their voices are usually drowned out.

Ross


Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?

Joe,
  Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
same time without being punched in the face :-)

Marcel,
   I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?



On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >
> > 1. Use Github Issues
> > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >
> >
> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache hate GitHub
> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough problems just
> getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love to dump JIRA and
> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
> our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>
>
> >
> > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
> > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
> > should still continue to interface in Github.
> >
> >
> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
> would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
> everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One thing that I think we don't
> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how these
> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF cared about such
> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > >
> > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> > clearly
> > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
> think
> > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > > anything relative to the mobile.
> > >
> > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
> > are
> > > native :)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > >
> > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> > > about
> > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> > done
> > > > and appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am
> the
> > > > only one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> > native
> > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> > > apps I
> > > > work on!
> > > >
> > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics
> and
> > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> > reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years
> ago.
> > > Even
> > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still
> hang
> > in
> > > > > people's minds.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> > > it's
> > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > >
> > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
> using
> > > CSS
> > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of
> it. I
> > > > think
> > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > > > making
> > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> > iOS-style
> > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > > expect
> > > > a
> > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> > this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler
> > > > >
> > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score
is
> > low
> > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> > default
> > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> > Bash,
> > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development,
and
> no
> > > > > >full
> > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this
and
> as
> > > > > >Visual
> > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > > results
> > > > > >improve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> developers
> > > > > >using
> > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
nothing
> > > about
> > > > > >the
> > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> JS->Native->JS
> > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> communitcation
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> special
> > is
> > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
which
> > are
> > > > > >not
> > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that
:-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
of the
> > > > > >cordova
> > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> applications
> > > is
> > > > > >> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> > > from
> > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing
it
> and
> > > if
> > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
> because
> > > > > >that's
> > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon,
and
> > both
> > > > > >those
> > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create
a
> > shitty
> > > > > >> website.  We've been called the Drupal of development for
a
> > reason,
> > > > > >and at
> > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because
I
> > think
> > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project).  I don't
> think
> > we
> > > > > >should
> > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers
are
> > > > > >terrible
> > > > > >> anyway.  We should just make sure that what we're releasing
> isn't
> > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > ><leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
(
> > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > >> > Salesforce           73.2%
> > > > > >> > Visual Basic        72.0%
> > > > > >> > Wordpress         68.2%
> > > > > >> > Matlab                 65.6%
> > > > > >> > Sharepoint         62.8%
> > > > > >> > LAMP                    62.2%
> > > > > >> > Perl                        59.2%
> > > > > >> > Cordova               58.8%                  **************
> > > > > >> > Coffeescript       54.7%
> > > > > >> > Other                    57.3%
> > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
but
> have
> > > not
> > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is?  Here are some possible
> > answers.
> > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
rather
> > looking
> > > > > >for
> > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > frustration
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > *        There is no problem - unclear question led
to the
> > answer
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > *        The problem is really about creating native
apps in
> > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > *        Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability
|
> > > > > >usability |
> > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o   Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o   The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o   Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > books)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o   Too many bugs
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o   Changes too frequently
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cordialement,
> > > >
> > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > Netdevices
> > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Santana
> > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >
>



--
Carlos Santana
<csantana23@gmail.com>

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