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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:43:49 GMT
Those conversations have been had. GitHub won't open the logs (and we can't expect them to
given the privacy implications). Feel free to discuss again if you like - things may have
changed.

GitHub enterprise is not free. My comment about cost was from memory, I've asked David to
remind me of the details.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: brian.leroux@gmail.com [mailto:brian.leroux@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Brian LeRoux
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 12:17 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Github, again.

being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow, now that the goal
posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd open those to us as well (I'll find
out)

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as 
> VP Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> Sent: ‎4/‎10/‎2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github 
> entp too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of 
> course despite github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to the 
> >> ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up several 
> >> times, and answered several times (as I was almost sure it was done 
> >> here)... In any case, the following is a typical response to why 
> >> Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>         
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand this 
> >> issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the 
> >> > IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting 
> >> > that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan 
> >> > <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right

> >> >>> now, but I will promise to post back with some formulated 
> >> >>> thoughts a bit later (some of this I'm prepping for my 
> >> >>> ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not 
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not 
> >> >>> for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things 
> >> >>> about others almost always ends up making you look worse than 
> >> >>> those you are being negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though 
> >> >>> your views are your own (although statements like "Or we could

> >> >>> just leave the ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone 
> >> >>> often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to 
> >> >>> contribute to a project that is full of smileys and 
> >> >>> encouragement, or one where people are negative and abrasive? 
> >> >>> It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us 
> >> >>> set one up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their 
> >> >>> shared instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a 
> >> >>> collaboration between Infra and other projects that made it 
> >> >>> happen (we complained, but didn't do the work to make it 
> >> >>> possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a 
> >> >>> conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but

> >> >>> do issue trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow 
> >> >> GitHub as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the 
> >> >> Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, 
> >> >>> since that's meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
< 
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you 
> >> >>>>> disagree, it is offensive and exactly the kind of behavior
I 
> >> >>>>> am referring to (and why *I* dread ever posting to this
list, 
> >> >>>>> shame that question wasn't in the Stack Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based
on 
> >> >>>> the tone you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking
to 
> >> >>>> make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these 
> >> >>>> comments only reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that

> >> >>>> people don't agree with me, because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
< 
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings
no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive

> >> >>>>>> contributions and participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
 
> >> >>>>> There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've

> >> >>>>> had to fight the ASF every single time we wanted to do

> >> >>>>> anything with this project, and I'm expecting us to fight
the 
> >> >>>>> ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things
are 
> >> >>>>>> the way they are and, if they don't fit, one needs
to work 
> >> >>>>>> with people to propose changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different 
> >> >>>>> foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing
just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging
(there 
> >> >>>>>> are some individuals who certainly do not fit into
this 
> >> >>>>>> category, but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret

> >> >>>>> that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has
been 
> >> >>>>> complained about so many times by our community members
who 
> >> >>>>> have followed us since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and
the 
> >> >>>>> people who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going

> >> >>>>> to convince everyone our community that the ASF is a good

> >> >>>>> thing, especially since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking

> >> >>>>> various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle

> >> >>>>> that we haven't forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what
we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face
:-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently
can 
> >> >>>>>> you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million

> >> >>>>>> cordova developers to see if what is the possibility
to use 
> >> >>>>>> github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving

> >> >>>>>> in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser 
> >> >>>>>> <bowserj@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana 
> >> >>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of
Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR
anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest
and preferred 
> >> >>>>>>>> way Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github
web hooks 
> >> >>>>>>>> to create corresponding jira items, and sync
comments. we 
> >> >>>>>>>> already doing this with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that
be at 
> >> >>>>>>> Apache hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have
enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.
 I would 
> >> >>>>>>> love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move
to the 
> >> >>>>>>> Apache infrastructure seriously hurt the project
and made 
> >> >>>>>>> it less accessible to our users and anyone who
isn't an 
> >> >>>>>>> Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move
out from Apache 
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should
not affect the 
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this
way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because
we'd be 
> >> >>>>>>> allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi
existed.  
> >> >>>>>>> One thing that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the
ASF 
> >> >>>>>>> policies and how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that
the ASF 
> >> >>>>>>> cared about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this
more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef 
> >> >>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before
the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers
don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript,
the 
> >> >>>>>>>>> mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile
applications and 
> >> >>>>>>>>> most of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B
B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire
< 
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought
we don't know all 
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have,
at least, an idea 
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I
use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile
web apps can be 
> >> >>>>>>>>>> as good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and
that's what I try 
> >> >>>>>>>>>> to do for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we
appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman
<
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception
the most is the 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs
Native. Here's a few 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off
Phonegap apps they saw 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> 3 years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since
then, those first 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> apps still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard
enough for that 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> smooth, buttery animations. It
is possible to get 60fps 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> on modern WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an
article once that 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties
like "left". That 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> changed my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and
reacts so much better 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> because of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova
docs to lay out tips 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> like that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions.
Some apps just port 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without
considering that 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Android users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm.
Not sure there's much to 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> do about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT,
Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting
survey. My take is that 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants
are Windows users 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows
is extremely 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional - Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal
command driven 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team
is dramatically 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improving this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes
more well known, I hope 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08
AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in
some situations and most of 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova
developers itself) are 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the
hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything
about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this
is absolutely ok, but if 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes
wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that
there are some JS 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices.
No I don't name anyone 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that
they don't see the real 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy
UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8.
April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova
have a problem making 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated
form of Mobile Development, 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and
the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If
you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're
probably going to end up 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android
shop, re-implementing it 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with
that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks
aren't going away any time 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the
same property that anyone can 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called
the Drupal of development 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called
that, I took it as an insult 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited
a bad Drupal project).  I 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say
in a survey, since most 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just
make sure that what we're 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at
8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from
a StackOverflow Developer 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Survey (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce        
  73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic      
 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab            
    65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint        
62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP              
     62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl              
         59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova           
   58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript      
54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other             
      57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing
with the language or 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tech but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest
in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the
problem is?  Here are some 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting
that any of these are true, but 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those
who have heard developers 
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no
problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem
is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI
has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set
up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI
is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning
material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> ----- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
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