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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Thu, 09 Apr 2015 17:35:03 GMT
Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is offensive and exactly
the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why *I* dread ever posting to this list, shame
that question wasn't in the Stack Overflow survey).

I repeat again, if you believe a Member (outside or inside this community) then you are wrong.
The ASF is about merit and people earn merit through contribution. If you want to influence
ASF policy then contribute *to* it rather than complain *about* it. 

Finally, consider this... I've had a number of off list "thank you" responses to my earlier
mail and other similar mails in the past. I always ask those individuals to post publicly
but most never do. I don't embarrass people by asking why not, but I do invite members of
this community to consider why there is a silent majority and a noisy minority. Then re-read
my first sentence above.

Ross


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
wrote:

>
> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional 
> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and 
> participation.
>
>
That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There are clearly people who bully
people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight the ASF every single time we wanted
to do anything with this project, and I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
leave.


> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they 
> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose 
> changes that work.
>
>
Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules aren't as rigid.
 That could work too.


> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. 
> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some 
> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their 
> voices are usually drowned out.
>
>
I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that we donated the PhoneGap code
to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained about so many times by our community
members who have followed us since we started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now,
and the people who feel like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to convince
everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your organization has
been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the JS community for years.  Honestly,
I think it's a miracle that we haven't forked yet.

Joe

Ross
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Joe,
>   Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while 
> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>
> Marcel,
>    I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk 
> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova 
> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the 
> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in
my email?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > >
> > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way 
> > > Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to create 
> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this 
> > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache hate
> GitHub
> > with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough problems 
> > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love to 
> > dump JIRA
> and
> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache 
> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less 
> > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache 
> > > Foundation,
> to
> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the 
> > > community
> they
> > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > >
> > >
> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving 
> > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to 
> > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One thing 
> > that I think we
> don't
> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
> these
> > stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF cared 
> > about
> such
> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef 
> > > <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > >
> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem 
> > > > is
> > > clearly
> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. 
> > > > They
> > think
> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web 
> > > > nor anything relative to the mobile.
> > > >
> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most 
> > > > of
> them
> > > are
> > > > native :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire < 
> > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> details
> > > > about
> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the 
> > > > > work
> > > done
> > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think 
> > > > > I am
> > the
> > > > > only one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as 
> > > > > good as
> > > native
> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do 
> > > > > for
> the
> > > > apps I
> > > > > work on!
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the 
> > > > > > graphics
> > and
> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few 
> > > > > > possible
> > > reasons:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 
> > > > > > years
> > ago.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps 
> > > > > > still
> > hang
> > > in
> > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, 
> > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern 
> > > > > > WebKit views,
> but
> > > > it's
> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that 
> > > > > > recommended
> > using
> > > > CSS
> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed 
> > > > > > my
> whole
> > > way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because

> > > > > > of
> > it. I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like 
> > > > > > that
> for
> > > > > making
> > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port 
> > > > > > their
> > > iOS-style
> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android

> > > > > > users
> > > > expect
> > > > > a
> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do 
> > > > > > about
> > > this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the

> > > > > > >score
> is
> > > low
> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and

> > > > > > >the
> > > default
> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional
- 
> > > > > > >Git
> > > Bash,
> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven 
> > > > > > >development, and
> > no
> > > > > > >full
> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving

> > > > > > >this and
> > as
> > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those

> > > > > > >survey
> > > > results
> > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of
the
> > developers
> > > > > > >using
> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> nothing
> > > > about
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> > communitcation
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> > special
> > > is
> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> which
> > > are
> > > > > > >not
> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone
of 
> > > > > > >> that
> :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power

> > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making 
> > > > > > >> developers
> > happy?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,

> > > > > > >> because
> > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> > applications
> > > > is
> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting a Cordova
> application
> > > > from
> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up 
> > > > > > >> re-writing it
> > and
> > > > if
> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it 
> > > > > > >> natively
> > because
> > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time

> > > > > > >> soon, and
> > > both
> > > > > > >those
> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can

> > > > > > >> create a
> > > shitty
> > > > > > >> website.  We've been called the Drupal of development
for 
> > > > > > >> a
> > > reason,
> > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult

> > > > > > >> because I
> > > think
> > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project).
 I 
> > > > > > >> don't
> > think
> > > we
> > > > > > >should
> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most 
> > > > > > >> developers
> are
> > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > >> anyway.  We should just make sure that what we're 
> > > > > > >> releasing
> > isn't
> > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > > ><leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer
Survey 
> > > > > > >> > ( http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > >> > Salesforce           73.2%
> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic        72.0%
> > > > > > >> > Wordpress         68.2%
> > > > > > >> > Matlab                 65.6%
> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint         62.8%
> > > > > > >> > LAMP                    62.2%
> > > > > > >> > Perl                        59.2%
> > > > > > >> > Cordova               58.8%                  **************
> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript       54.7%
> > > > > > >> > Other                    57.3%
> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language
or tech 
> > > > > > >> > but
> > have
> > > > not
> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is?  Here are some

> > > > > > >> > possible
> > > answers.
> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true,
but 
> > > > > > >> > rather
> > > looking
> > > > > > >for
> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers
express
> > > frustration
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > *        There is no problem - unclear question
led to the
> > > answer
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > *        The problem is really about creating
native apps in
> > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > *        Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability
|
> > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o   Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o   The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o   Not enough learning material (documentation,
articles,
> > > books)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o   Too many bugs
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o   Changes too frequently
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > >
> > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carlos Santana
> > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Santana
> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>
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