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From Jim Jagielski <...@jaguNET.com>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:59:48 GMT
If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
to listen.

> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> 
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
> 
> Now maybe this is possible?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> 
>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>> 
>>>        http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>> 
>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>>> (code).
>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>>> or
>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>> 
>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>>> most
>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>>> (some
>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>>> constructive.
>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
the
>>>>>> sake
>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>>> views are
>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
just
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
email
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>>> (we
>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
one
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>>> instance.
>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
that
>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>> 
>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>>> of use.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring
to (and
>>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't
in the
>>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on
the
>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't
agree
>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings
no additional
>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. 
There are
>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've
had to
>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
leave.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things
are the way
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people
to
>>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
whose
>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing
just that.
>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging
(there are
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category,
but their
>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret
that we
>>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has
been
>>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
us
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the
people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going
to
>>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
parts
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle
that we
>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we
want, while
>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently
can you talk
>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million
cordova
>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github
with the
>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
in place
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of
Github.
>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and
preferred way
>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web
hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments.
we already doing
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that
be at Apache
>>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have
enough problems
>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.
 I would love to
>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move
to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made
it less
>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out
from Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not
affect the
>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this
way, us leaving
>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd
be allowed to
>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi
existed.  One
>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF
policies and
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that
the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this
more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before
the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't
understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript,
the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile
applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B
B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire
<
>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought
we don't know all the
>>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have,
at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use
work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile
web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and
that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman
<Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception
the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs
Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off
Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since
then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard
enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible
to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an
article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties
like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts
so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova
docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions.
Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without
considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not
sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT,
Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting
survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants
are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows
is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal
command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team
is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more
well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM,
Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some
situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova
developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood,
or anything about the
>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything
about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is
absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes
wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there
are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices.
No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that
they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy
UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April
2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova
have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated
form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and
the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If
you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably
going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android
shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with
that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks
aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same
property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called
the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that,
I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited
a bad Drupal project).  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say
in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just make
sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03
AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from
a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce          
73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic        72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab              
  65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint         62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP                
   62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl                
       59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova             
 58.8%
>>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript       54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other               
    57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing
with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in
continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the
problem is?  Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that
any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who
have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no
problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem
is really about creating native
>>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI
has a quality problem
>>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set up
development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI is
too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning
material (documentation,
>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>> 
>>> 


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