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From Jim Jagielski <...@jaguNET.com>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 15:45:02 GMT
You said:

  1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or worse
  2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.

neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
and #2 is a complete strawman.


> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> 
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> 
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> 
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>> 
>>        http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
>> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>> 
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>> 
>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>> 
>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>> but I
>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>> (some
>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>> anyways).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>> constructive.
>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>>>> sake
>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>> others
>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>> views are
>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>> make it
>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>>>> makes
>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>> contribute to
>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>> people
>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>>>> tone
>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>> (we
>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>> up.
>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>> instance.
>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>> collaboration
>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>> but
>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>> we
>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>> issue
>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>> 
>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>> of use.
>>>> 
>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>> that's
>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to
(and
>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in
the
>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>> attack
>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There
are
>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had
to
>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are
the way
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people
to
>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
whose
>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
that.
>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
are
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category,
but their
>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that
we
>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
us
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to
>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
parts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle that
we
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
while
>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can
you talk
>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github
with the
>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
in place
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred
way
>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks
to create
>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already
doing
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be
at Apache
>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough
problems
>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would
love to
>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to
the Apache
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it
less
>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from
Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect
the
>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way,
us leaving
>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be
allowed to
>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.
 One
>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies
and
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the
ASF cared
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more
clearly.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the
1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't
understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript,
the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications
and most
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4
BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire
<
>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we
don't know all the
>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at
least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work
and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web
apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's
what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman
<Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception
the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native.
Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap
apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then,
those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough
for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to
get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article
once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like
"left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts
so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs
to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some
apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering
that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure
there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael
Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey.
My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants
are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is
extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal
command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is
dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well
known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak
Daniel <
>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations
and most of the
>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers
itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood,
or anything about the
>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything
about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely
ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong,
then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there
are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices.
No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they
don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy
UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April
2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have
a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form
of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the
quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If you're
inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably
going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop,
re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't
going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property
that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called the
Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that,
I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a
bad Drupal project).  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a
survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just make
sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM
Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a
StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce           73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic        72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab                 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint         62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP                    62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl                    
   59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova               58.8%
>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript       54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other                   
57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing
with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing
to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem
is?  Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any
of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have
heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no problem
- unclear question led to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem is really
about creating native
>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI has
a quality problem
>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set up development
environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI is too
complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning material
(documentation,
>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> 
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