Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9DD29175BC for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:49:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 26937 invoked by uid 500); 10 Oct 2014 16:49:00 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@cordova.apache.org Received: (qmail 26899 invoked by uid 500); 10 Oct 2014 16:49:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@cordova.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@cordova.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@cordova.apache.org Received: (qmail 26883 invoked by uid 99); 10 Oct 2014 16:48:59 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:48:59 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of brian.leroux@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.170 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.213.170] (HELO mail-ig0-f170.google.com) (209.85.213.170) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:48:55 +0000 Received: by mail-ig0-f170.google.com with SMTP id hn15so7554373igb.1 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=HaWE2Hc39T0jrQKEn7oqCuDbQWX9vzIsRXwuC+xbUpo=; b=eXJONvhkBS9jPlKE1QMvFhuK+RuzXEv9OQGubtVPLImuojJGOJ0KjduvwpJGPgOxww PNt5jDqRLK1N8dNS96KcAF1ObHUgHH6COhKeYV+32fBFm2Q2ZGGMFXSsu5qNc6OclsIB RsYBA9W6v/YQpEGx8YaqEgKSBo+WoPQh2Xi4t1IR36wORqIEdcoz9VgDW0+OAFbVWB63 wHEhY2myMSELjBxpcvpOzURRMahmD9KwlFL+bbeOgEyzy7HTRTBgLl8CggeOZ4jXUTfc bKPjVxMFWzshH5tUfeHKpK48GhyB6io1eTcJY+j823MvuwFfAP68qLLtujOvELlUI2rQ /a5A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.66.19 with SMTP id xo19mr18014157icb.31.1412959714969; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: brian.leroux@gmail.com Received: by 10.50.235.7 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.235.7 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20141007124134.6340692.78531.12146@blackberry.com> <2E03C74B-B671-4651-A574-03AE1E7C110B@gmail.com> <85A3E123BABF314D9D3656D0B418125643E4E2EC@FMSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com> <85A3E123BABF314D9D3656D0B418125643E4EBCB@FMSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:48:34 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: AyCSRMHFFncKLK8f-EWS3Tjs034 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary From: Brian LeRoux To: dev@cordova.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d23c2e492a105051451d4 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --bcaec51d23c2e492a105051451d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As is 4. This is more of an outreach, marketing, blogging, tweeting, etc problem. Versions are for issue tracking not marketing. (Tho semver and our respective $BIGCO's confuse that to their and our continued strife.) (All IMO of course, happy to follow the wisdom of the crowd on this one.) On Oct 10, 2014 9:29 AM, "Michal Mocny" wrote: > 5 is also fine. > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Brian LeRoux wrote: > > > I am against it. Its not going to achieve the goal of alleviating > > confusion. People see the CLI as the version not the platforms. I'd > rather > > we went to 5 if anything. > > On Oct 9, 2014 3:56 PM, "Parashuram Narasimhan (MS OPEN TECH)" < > > panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > I meant tag and start the vote for the next release :) > > > > > > On 10/9/14, 3:01 PM, "Chuck Lantz" wrote: > > > > > > >+1 > > > > > > > >-Chuck > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Jesse [mailto:purplecabbage@gmail.com] > > > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:55 PM > > > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org > > > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > > > > > >+1 to not voting ;) , it implies we will wait 72 hours before moving > on. > > > > > > > >How about if anyone is completely against 10.0.0 they voice it here, > in > > > >the next couple hours, otherwise we move forward. > > > > > > > >@purplecabbage > > > >risingj.com > > > > > > > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Steven Gill > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > >> I don't think a vote is necessary. I'd hate to see us resort to > voting > > > >> to solve problems. Voting should be a last resort if consensus is > > > >> split. I don't see that in this scenario. > > > >> > > > >> I propose we bumb the version up to 10.0.0. > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Parashuram Narasimhan (MS OPEN > TECH) < > > > >> panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Lets start with a vote for 10.0.0 ? And if someone feels strongl= y > > > >> > about calling it something the vote could be cancelled !! > > > >> > > > > >> > On 10/9/14, 2:41 PM, "Chuck Lantz" wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > >Yeah agreed - Vladimir squashed the bug and what was at once > point > > > >> > >to be called 3.7.0 has been mainly waiting on a version number. > > > >> > >Personally I am fine with 10.0.0 or 5.0.0 - Either send the > message > > > >> > >that platform versions are divorced from the CLI from a > versioning > > > >> > >perspective (though behavior is still predictable). Leo - I > think > > > >> > >at least out of the gate devs will likely focus on the CLI > version > > > >> > >as primary. Basically today, the cadence version of the CLI is > > > >> > >what people talk about. Heck, Cordova > > > >> > >3.4.1 was 3.4.0 for all platforms but iOS. The main message is > > > >> > >that > > > >> when > > > >> > >you platform add android, you may see an npm pull for > > > >> > >cordova-android@4.3.2 and that is expected. It's just > formalizing > > > >> > >the message and allows independent platform rev'ing. > > > >> > > > > > >> > >-Chuck > > > >> > > > > > >> > >-----Original Message----- > > > >> > >From: Steven Gill [mailto:stevengill97@gmail.com] > > > >> > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:13 PM > > > >> > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org > > > >> > >Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard > > > >> > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > >> > > > > > >> > >I think vladimir fixed the bug. We just need to release now. > > > >> > > > > > >> > >Only thing holding back the release now is consensus on the > version > > > >> > >of the cli. It seemed like most people were leaning toward > 10.0.0. > > > >> > >Should I move forward with that? I would just have to branch + > pin > > > >> > >deps > > > >> > > > > > >> > >Leo the documentation version dropdown box would be tied to cli > > > >>version. > > > >> > >It still makes sense to copy over platform documentation into > > > >> > >platform repos and maybe copy it into docs during generation > time. > > > >> > > > > > >> > >As for plugin pinning, plugins have more to do with platforms. = I > > > >> wouldn't > > > >> > >say they aren't tied to the cli at all. I understand your point > > > >>though. > > > >> > >So far, we haven't had any plugins that won't work with previou= s > > > >> versions > > > >> > >(As far as I know). We should really fix the engine stuff for > > > >> > >plugins so we can keep track of what platforms they work for. I= 'd > > > >> > >like us to give warnings to users to update their plugins if > newer > > > >>versions are out. > > > >> > >Cordova info should also dump what versions of plugins you have > > > >> installed > > > >> > >if it doesn't already. In combination with cordova --save & > cordova > > > >> > >--restore, we should be able to recommend a workflow that is > easily > > > >> > >reproducible on any machine. > > > >> > > > > > >> > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Chuck Lantz < > clantz@microsoft.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> Okay - so - there's a pretty nasty CLI blocker bug right now. > > > >> > >> Plugins with dependencies don't install (this affects all > > > >> > >> platforms). In my opinion, we need to get a CLI release out > > > >> > >> really soon. Are we closed on this topic, or do we need to > look > > > >> > >> at doing the old process to get this out the door while we ar= e > > > >>still talking? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> There are also a series of other bugs in the currently tagged > > > >>"3.6.4" > > > >> > >> platforms for Android, Windows, and Windows Phone 8. These c= an > > > >> > >> be handled independently, but the CLI bug can't. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-7670 > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> -Chuck > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> > >> From: Treggiari, Leo [mailto:leo.treggiari@intel.com] > > > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:23 PM > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev > > > >> > >> Subject: RE: Independent platform release summary > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> I'll have to admit that this seems a bit weird. That is, > > > >> > >> independent versions of the CLI and platforms, with a "Cordov= a > > > >> > >> release" named "something" - e.g. a date? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Imagine a user wants to know whether the new whitelist entry = in > > > >> > >> config.xml is supported in the versions of CLI and platforms > that > > > >> > >> they have - assuming they understand the distinction between > the > > > >> > >> CLI and platforms to begin with. They use some command to li= st > > > >> > >> the versions of the "things" (CLI and > > > >> > >> platforms) they have installed. They go to the individual > > > >> > >> documentation of the "things" and try to figure it out. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> The way the Cordova documentation works today is nice with th= e > > > >> > >> combo box where I can select a Cordova version - 3.6.0, 3.5.0= , > > > >> > >> ... What would the combo box contain in the new versioning > > > >> > >> scheme and how many entries would there be? Are the answers > > > >>"dates" and "lots of dates"? > > > >> > >> Or would there be no Cordova version documentation other than > an > > > >> > >> explanation of how to get the list of "things" you currently > have > > > >> > >> and where to find the documentation on them. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> To "pin" or not to "pin. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Note that, to me, the pinning choice defines what happens whe= n > I > > > >> > >>use "cordova {plugin | platform} add foo" with no specific > > > >> > >>version specified. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> I've understood, so far at least, that plugins are not pinned > (an > > > >> > >> add always fetches something) and platforms are pinned to a C= LI > > > >> > >> version (an add tells the CLI that I will be using that > platform > > > >> > >> (already > > > >> > >> installed) for this project). Everything I have read which > > > >> > >> includes 1 book and the on-line project documentation, sugges= t > > > >> > >> that, even if not stating it explicitly. E.g. plugins talk > about > > > >> > >> "fetching" and platforms don't. There is a way to fetch a > > > >> > >> specific version of platform support. That's good and if I d= o > > > >> > >> that it is up to me to understand the compatibility of the > > > >>specific version I requested. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Is this true? If so then the npm cordova behavior seems weir= d. > > > >> > >> That is, if I "npm install cordova" I get a set of pinned > > > >> > >> platforms. If I "npm update cordova", I get a new CLI and > > > >> > >> nothing else - i.e. not the platforms that were pinned to tha= t > > > >>version of the CLI? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Should the plugin and platform 'pin' behavior be the same? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Should both be pinned? Some may find this alternative > > > >>"blasphemous" > > > >> > >> but the core plugin versions tested with a version of the CLI > > > >> > >> could be pinned to the version of the CLI. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Should both not be pinned? It would be more consistent and i= f > > > >> > >> users are OK with plugins being unpinned, why not platforms? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> But maybe plugins and platforms are different. Plugins are > > > >> > >> purely run-time code. Platforms are primarily tooling with > some > > > >> > >> run-time > > > >> code. > > > >> > >> Does that difference make the current pinning behavior the be= st > > > >> choice. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Maybe, but personally I would prefer both to be pinned - i.e.= I > > > >> > >> install a version of Cordova, and until I update it, every > time I > > > >> > >> add a platform or 'core' plugin, I get the same thing. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Leo > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> From: mmocny@google.com [mailto:mmocny@google.com] On Behalf > Of > > > >> Michal > > > >> > >> Mocny > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:47 PM > > > >> > >> To: Treggiari, Leo > > > >> > >> Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard; dev > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> With this direction, there is no single number. Users should > not > > > >> > >> functionally care about CLI version, so there will just be th= e > > > >> > >> platform versions that matter, really. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Downstreams can of course put labels on combinations of > versions, > > > >> > >> so "PhoneGap 4" may be Android 4, iOS 3.8, and etc. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Treggiari, Leo > > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > Did I miss anything? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> I don't think we closed on this (I had to leave the meeting a > > > >> > >> little > > > >> > >> early) but a remaining question is how to version what we (an= d > > > >> > >> users) call "Cordova". Assuming a "Cordova" version is a poi= nt > > > >> > >> in time collection of the latest CLI version + platform > versions > > > >> > >> + plugin versions. Is the Cordova version semver (using what > > > >> > >> algorithm with respect to its contained > > > >> > >> components) or is that what you meant by ""latest as of Oct > > > >> > >> 2014" or something". > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Thanks, > > > >> > >> Leo > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> > >> From: mmocny@google.com [mailto: > > > >> > >> mmocny@google.com] On Behalf Of > Michal > > > >> Mocny > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:13 PM > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary Thanks > everyone > > > >> > >> for participation in what was a long and grueling discussion. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Summary of current proposal: > > > >> > >> - Cad-ver is dead. > > > >> > >> - Everything moves Sem-ver, with platforms continuing from > > > >> > >> current versions and diverging over time. > > > >> > >> - CLI potentially gets a significant version bump to showcase > > > >> > >> this reset (to 5.0 or 10.0, not yet settled) > > > >> > >> - Pinning default platform versions *will* continue for the > time > > > >> > >> being, but it will be trivial to override the default. > > > >> > >> - Platforms will have CLI tag equivalent (unclear ye= t > if > > > >> > >> as node peerDependency or otherwise) so devs will know when > they > > > >> > >> need to upgrade/downgrade CLI for non-default platform > versions. > > > >> > >> - After a platform update, eventually CLI will release to "pi= n" > > > >> > >> the new default, and bump its PATCH/MINOR version (unless CLI > had > > > >> > >> a functional update at same time that requires a larger bump)= . > > > >> > >> - After you update CLI, your existing projects don't change & > > > >> > >> platform upgrades remain explicit, but you will now get > warnings > > > >> > >> if your installed platforms are older than the CLI pinned > > versions. > > > >> > >> - Event MAJOR changes to platforms are not MAJOR updates to t= he > > > >> > >> CLI, unless there is an actual breaking change to the CLI too= l > > > >> > >> (i.e. new CLI will no longer work with the currently installe= d > > > >>platform). > > > >> > >> - Platform and CLI docs have to split out and be released & > > > >> > >> versioned alongside each (like plugins). Cross references fr= om > > > >> > >> one to the other will only be needed in a few places. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Note: The CLI-Platform compatibility story is functionally no > > > >> > >>different than we have today. If you upgrade your CLI and the= re > > > >> > >>is a breaking change, you will have to re-create your project= s > or > > > >> > >>downgrade CLI again. > > > >> > >> Now we plan to be more explicit about it and offer warnings. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Note: There is no concept of a "fancy-pants" release other th= an > > > >> > >> to say "latest as of Oct 2014" or something. Platforms don't > > > >> > >> have a single common set of functionality, so CadVer was > somewhat > > > >> > >> misleading already in that sense. We could introduce a conce= pt > > > >> > >> of "API Level" for exec bridge or something for use by plugin= s, > > > >>but not sure that has value. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> What wasn't covered that came to mind after the fact: > > > >> > >> - When there is an update available for CLI, should we give a > > > >> > >> warning to update? (this is useful, but isn't common for npm > > > >> > >> modules. I think we already do this from plugman when you tr= y > to > > > >>publish plugins?). > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Did I miss anything? > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> -Michal > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Michal Mocny > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> mmocny@chromium.org>> wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > External Public link for those that just want to watch/chat= : > > > >> > >> > https://plus.google.com/events/cm4l0vifcig920qkhpn5stqiet4 > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > Hangout link to join the conversation: > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcNwXEyet4Xv_23HiTl > > > >> > >> > 4I K0jsM4NlmGy5kbLsPIW3SnOsUEIQ?authuser=3D0&hl=3Den > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > See you in 30 minutes. > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Michal Mocny > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> >> +dev list again > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> Not everyone could make 1pm, not everyone could make 2pm. > > > >> > >> >> While I don't think we need a full 2 hours, I'm hoping to > > > >> > >> >> start late and end early -- proving opportunity people to > pop > > > >> > >> >> in at either time and chime > > > >> > >> in. > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Marcel Kinard > > > >> > >> >> > > > > >> > >> >> wrote: > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> >>> Is the expected duration 1 hour or 2 hours? > > > >> > >> >>> > > > >> > >> >>> On Oct 8, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Michal Mocny > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> mmocny@chromium.org>> wrote: > > > >> > >> >>> > > > >> > >> >>> > So it looks like Today 1-3 EST or Friday 1-3 EST are th= e > > > >> > >> >>> > best > > > >> > >>times. > > > >> > >> >>> I'm > > > >> > >> >>> > going to start the ball rolling to do this TODAY, but i= f > > > >> > >> >>> > that proves > > > >> > >> >>> too > > > >> > >> >>> > short notices we'll move it to Friday. > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > >> > >> >>> > I'll email out links to hangout at 12:30 or so, and I'm > > > >> > >> >>> > hoping Steven > > > >> > >> >>> can > > > >> > >> >>> > make it before 2pm since he's been most active with > > > >> > >> >>> > releases > > > >> > >> recently. > > > >> > >> >>> > > > > >> > >> >>> > -Michal > > > >> > >> >>> > > > >> > >> >>> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > >-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org > > > >> > >For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >?B=EF=BF=BDKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK= KKKKKKKCB=EF=BF=BD > > > > > > >?=EF=BF=BD?[=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BDX=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=DC=9AX=EF=BF=BDK??K[XZ= [?=EF=BF=BD??]=EF=BF=BD][=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BDX=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=DC=9AX=EF=BF= =BDP?=EF=BF=BD=DC=99?=DD=98K=EF=BF=BD\?X=EF=BF=BD?K=EF=BF=BD=DC=99=EF=BF=BD= B=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=DC=88?Y??]?[=DB=98[??=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD[X[=EF=BF=BD > > > >?=EF=BF=BD??K[XZ[?=EF=BF=BD??]=EF=BF=BDZ?[???=EF=BF=BD=DC=99?=DD=98K= =EF=BF=BD\?X=EF=BF=BD?K=EF=BF=BD=DC=99=EF=BF=BDB > > > > > > > > > --bcaec51d23c2e492a105051451d4--