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From Michal Mocny <mmo...@chromium.org>
Subject Re: Independent platform release summary
Date Fri, 10 Oct 2014 16:56:10 GMT
4 was also discussed as fine, and in isolation would have been our choice
for sure -- but we worried that with the impending "cordova-4.0" releases,
it would confuse users and not mark a clear departure from cadver.

The more I think about it though, the less important I think that worry
is.  Maybe 4.0 is fine.

(Apologies to Steve, who just wants to get this over with)

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:

> As is 4.
>
> This is more of an outreach, marketing, blogging, tweeting, etc problem.
> Versions are for issue tracking not marketing. (Tho semver and our
> respective $BIGCO's confuse that to their and our continued strife.)
>
> (All IMO of course, happy to follow the wisdom of the crowd on this one.)
> On Oct 10, 2014 9:29 AM, "Michal Mocny" <mmocny@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> > 5 is also fine.
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > > I am against it. Its not going to achieve the goal of alleviating
> > > confusion. People see the CLI as the version not the platforms. I'd
> > rather
> > > we went to 5 if anything.
> > > On Oct 9, 2014 3:56 PM, "Parashuram Narasimhan (MS OPEN TECH)" <
> > > panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I meant tag and start the vote for the next release :)
> > > >
> > > > On 10/9/14, 3:01 PM, "Chuck Lantz" <clantz@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >+1
> > > > >
> > > > >-Chuck
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Jesse [mailto:purplecabbage@gmail.com]
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:55 PM
> > > > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary
> > > > >
> > > > >+1 to not voting ;) , it implies we will wait 72 hours before moving
> > on.
> > > > >
> > > > >How about if anyone is completely against 10.0.0 they voice it here,
> > in
> > > > >the next couple hours, otherwise we move forward.
> > > > >
> > > > >@purplecabbage
> > > > >risingj.com
> > > > >
> > > > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
> >
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I don't think a vote is necessary. I'd hate to see us resort
to
> > voting
> > > > >> to solve problems. Voting should be a last resort if consensus
is
> > > > >> split. I don't see that in this scenario.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I propose we bumb the version up to 10.0.0.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Parashuram Narasimhan (MS OPEN
> > TECH) <
> > > > >> panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Lets start with a vote for 10.0.0 ? And if someone feels
> strongly
> > > > >> > about calling it something the vote could be cancelled !!
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On 10/9/14, 2:41 PM, "Chuck Lantz" <clantz@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >Yeah agreed - Vladimir squashed the bug and what was
at once
> > point
> > > > >> > >to be called 3.7.0 has been mainly waiting on a version
number.
> > > > >> > >Personally I am fine with 10.0.0 or 5.0.0 - Either send
the
> > message
> > > > >> > >that platform versions are divorced from the CLI from
a
> > versioning
> > > > >> > >perspective (though behavior is still predictable).
 Leo - I
> > think
> > > > >> > >at least out of the gate devs will likely focus on the
CLI
> > version
> > > > >> > >as primary.  Basically today, the cadence version of
the CLI is
> > > > >> > >what people talk about.  Heck, Cordova
> > > > >> > >3.4.1 was 3.4.0 for all platforms but iOS.  The main
message is
> > > > >> > >that
> > > > >> when
> > > > >> > >you platform add android, you may see an npm pull for
> > > > >> > >cordova-android@4.3.2 and that is expected.  It's just
> > formalizing
> > > > >> > >the message and allows independent platform rev'ing.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >-Chuck
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >> > >From: Steven Gill [mailto:stevengill97@gmail.com]
> > > > >> > >Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:13 PM
> > > > >> > >To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> > >Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard
> > > > >> > >Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >I think vladimir fixed the bug. We just need to release
now.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Only thing holding back the release now is consensus
on the
> > version
> > > > >> > >of the cli. It seemed like most people were leaning
toward
> > 10.0.0.
> > > > >> > >Should I move forward with that? I would just have to
branch +
> > pin
> > > > >> > >deps
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Leo the documentation version dropdown box would be
tied to cli
> > > > >>version.
> > > > >> > >It still makes sense to copy over platform documentation
into
> > > > >> > >platform repos and maybe copy it into docs during generation
> > time.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >As for plugin pinning, plugins have more to do with
platforms.
> I
> > > > >> wouldn't
> > > > >> > >say they aren't tied to the cli at all. I understand
your point
> > > > >>though.
> > > > >> > >So far, we haven't had any plugins that won't work with
> previous
> > > > >> versions
> > > > >> > >(As far as I know). We should really fix the engine
stuff for
> > > > >> > >plugins so we can keep track of what platforms they
work for.
> I'd
> > > > >> > >like us to give warnings to users to update their plugins
if
> > newer
> > > > >>versions are out.
> > > > >> > >Cordova info should also dump what versions of plugins
you have
> > > > >> installed
> > > > >> > >if it doesn't already. In combination with cordova --save
&
> > cordova
> > > > >> > >--restore, we should be able to recommend a workflow
that is
> > easily
> > > > >> > >reproducible on any machine.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Chuck Lantz <
> > clantz@microsoft.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> Okay - so - there's a pretty nasty CLI blocker
bug right now.
> > > > >> > >> Plugins with dependencies don't install (this affects
all
> > > > >> > >> platforms).  In my opinion, we need to get a CLI
release out
> > > > >> > >> really soon.  Are we closed on this topic, or do
we need to
> > look
> > > > >> > >> at doing the old process to get this out the door
while we
> are
> > > > >>still talking?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> There are also a series of other bugs in the currently
tagged
> > > > >>"3.6.4"
> > > > >> > >> platforms for Android, Windows, and Windows Phone
8.  These
> can
> > > > >> > >> be handled independently, but the CLI bug can't.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-7670
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> -Chuck
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> > >> From: Treggiari, Leo [mailto:leo.treggiari@intel.com]
> > > > >> > >> Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:23 PM
> > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny
> > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev
> > > > >> > >> Subject: RE: Independent platform release summary
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I'll have to admit that this seems a bit weird.
 That is,
> > > > >> > >> independent versions of the CLI and platforms,
with a
> "Cordova
> > > > >> > >> release" named "something" - e.g. a date?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Imagine a user wants to know whether the new whitelist
entry
> in
> > > > >> > >> config.xml is supported in the versions of CLI
and platforms
> > that
> > > > >> > >> they have - assuming they understand the distinction
between
> > the
> > > > >> > >> CLI and platforms to begin with.  They use some
command to
> list
> > > > >> > >> the versions of the "things" (CLI and
> > > > >> > >> platforms) they have installed.  They go to the
individual
> > > > >> > >> documentation of the "things" and try to figure
it out.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> The way the Cordova documentation works today is
nice with
> the
> > > > >> > >> combo box where I can select a Cordova version
- 3.6.0,
> 3.5.0,
> > > > >> > >> ...  What would the combo box contain in the new
versioning
> > > > >> > >> scheme and how many entries would there be?  Are
the answers
> > > > >>"dates" and "lots of dates"?
> > > > >> > >> Or would there be no Cordova version documentation
other than
> > an
> > > > >> > >> explanation of how to get the list of "things"
you currently
> > have
> > > > >> > >> and where to find the documentation on them.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> To "pin" or not to "pin.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Note that, to me, the pinning choice defines what
happens
> when
> > I
> > > > >> > >>use  "cordova {plugin | platform} add foo" with
no specific
> > > > >> > >>version specified.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I've understood, so far at least, that plugins
are not pinned
> > (an
> > > > >> > >> add always fetches something) and platforms are
pinned to a
> CLI
> > > > >> > >> version (an add tells the CLI that I will be using
that
> > platform
> > > > >> > >> (already
> > > > >> > >> installed) for this project).  Everything I have
read which
> > > > >> > >> includes 1 book and the on-line project documentation,
> suggest
> > > > >> > >> that, even if not stating it explicitly.  E.g.
plugins talk
> > about
> > > > >> > >> "fetching" and platforms don't.  There is a way
to fetch a
> > > > >> > >> specific version of platform support.  That's good
and if I
> do
> > > > >> > >> that it is up to me to understand the compatibility
of the
> > > > >>specific version I requested.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Is this true?  If so then the npm cordova behavior
seems
> weird.
> > > > >> > >> That is, if I "npm install cordova" I get a set
of pinned
> > > > >> > >> platforms.  If I "npm update cordova", I get a
new CLI and
> > > > >> > >> nothing else - i.e. not the platforms that were
pinned to
> that
> > > > >>version of the CLI?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Should the plugin and platform 'pin' behavior be
the same?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Should both be pinned?  Some may find this alternative
> > > > >>"blasphemous"
> > > > >> > >> but the core plugin versions tested with a version
of the CLI
> > > > >> > >> could be pinned to the version of the CLI.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Should both not be pinned?  It would be more consistent
and
> if
> > > > >> > >> users are OK with plugins being unpinned, why not
platforms?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> But maybe plugins and platforms are different.
 Plugins are
> > > > >> > >> purely run-time code.  Platforms are primarily
tooling with
> > some
> > > > >> > >> run-time
> > > > >> code.
> > > > >> > >> Does that difference make the current pinning behavior
the
> best
> > > > >> choice.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Maybe, but personally I would prefer both to be
pinned -
> i.e. I
> > > > >> > >> install a version of Cordova, and until I update
it, every
> > time I
> > > > >> > >> add a platform or 'core' plugin, I get the same
thing.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Leo
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> From: mmocny@google.com [mailto:mmocny@google.com]
On Behalf
> > Of
> > > > >> Michal
> > > > >> > >> Mocny
> > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:47 PM
> > > > >> > >> To: Treggiari, Leo
> > > > >> > >> Cc: Michal Mocny; Marcel Kinard; dev
> > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> With this direction, there is no single number.
 Users should
> > not
> > > > >> > >> functionally care about CLI version, so there will
just be
> the
> > > > >> > >> platform versions that matter, really.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Downstreams can of course put labels on combinations
of
> > versions,
> > > > >> > >> so "PhoneGap 4" may be Android 4, iOS 3.8, and
etc.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Treggiari, Leo
> > > > >> > >> <leo.treggiari@intel.com <mailto:leo.treggiari@intel.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > Did I miss anything?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I don't think we closed on this (I had to leave
the meeting a
> > > > >> > >> little
> > > > >> > >> early) but a remaining question is how to version
what we
> (and
> > > > >> > >> users) call "Cordova".  Assuming a "Cordova" version
is a
> point
> > > > >> > >> in time collection of the latest CLI version +
platform
> > versions
> > > > >> > >> + plugin versions.  Is the Cordova version semver
(using what
> > > > >> > >> algorithm with respect to its contained
> > > > >> > >> components) or is that what you meant by  ""latest
as of Oct
> > > > >> > >> 2014" or something".
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> Leo
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> > >> From: mmocny@google.com<mailto:mmocny@google.com>
[mailto:
> > > > >> > >> mmocny@google.com<mailto:mmocny@google.com>]
On Behalf Of
> > Michal
> > > > >> Mocny
> > > > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 1:13 PM
> > > > >> > >> To: Michal Mocny
> > > > >> > >> Cc: Marcel Kinard; dev
> > > > >> > >> Subject: Re: Independent platform release summary
Thanks
> > everyone
> > > > >> > >> for participation in what was a long and grueling
discussion.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Summary of current proposal:
> > > > >> > >> - Cad-ver is dead.
> > > > >> > >> - Everything moves Sem-ver, with platforms continuing
from
> > > > >> > >> current versions and diverging over time.
> > > > >> > >> - CLI potentially gets a significant version bump
to showcase
> > > > >> > >> this reset (to 5.0 or 10.0, not yet settled)
> > > > >> > >> - Pinning default platform versions *will* continue
for the
> > time
> > > > >> > >> being, but it will be trivial to override the default.
> > > > >> > >> - Platforms will have CLI <engine> tag equivalent
(unclear
> yet
> > if
> > > > >> > >> as node peerDependency or otherwise) so devs will
know when
> > they
> > > > >> > >> need to upgrade/downgrade CLI for non-default platform
> > versions.
> > > > >> > >> - After a platform update, eventually CLI will
release to
> "pin"
> > > > >> > >> the new default, and bump its PATCH/MINOR version
(unless CLI
> > had
> > > > >> > >> a functional update at same time that requires
a larger
> bump).
> > > > >> > >> - After you update CLI, your existing projects
don't change &
> > > > >> > >> platform upgrades remain explicit, but you will
now get
> > warnings
> > > > >> > >> if your installed platforms are older than the
CLI pinned
> > > versions.
> > > > >> > >> - Event MAJOR changes to platforms are not MAJOR
updates to
> the
> > > > >> > >> CLI, unless there is an actual breaking change
to the CLI
> tool
> > > > >> > >> (i.e. new CLI will no longer work with the currently
> installed
> > > > >>platform).
> > > > >> > >> - Platform and CLI docs have to split out and be
released &
> > > > >> > >> versioned alongside each (like plugins).  Cross
references
> from
> > > > >> > >> one to the other will only be needed in a few places.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Note: The CLI-Platform compatibility story is functionally
no
> > > > >> > >>different than we have today.  If you upgrade your
CLI and
> there
> > > > >> > >>is a  breaking change, you will have to re-create
your
> projects
> > or
> > > > >> > >>downgrade CLI again.
> > > > >> > >> Now we plan to be more explicit about it and offer
warnings.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Note: There is no concept of a "fancy-pants" release
other
> than
> > > > >> > >> to say "latest as of Oct 2014" or something.  Platforms
don't
> > > > >> > >> have a single common set of functionality, so CadVer
was
> > somewhat
> > > > >> > >> misleading already in that sense.  We could introduce
a
> concept
> > > > >> > >> of "API Level" for exec bridge or something for
use by
> plugins,
> > > > >>but not sure that has value.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> What wasn't covered that came to mind after the
fact:
> > > > >> > >> - When there is an update available for CLI, should
we give a
> > > > >> > >> warning to update? (this is useful, but isn't common
for npm
> > > > >> > >> modules.  I think we already do this from plugman
when you
> try
> > to
> > > > >>publish plugins?).
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Did I miss anything?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> -Michal
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Michal Mocny
> > > > >> > >><mmocny@chromium.org<mailto:
> > > > >> > >> mmocny@chromium.org>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> > External Public link for those that just want
to
> watch/chat:
> > > > >> > >> > https://plus.google.com/events/cm4l0vifcig920qkhpn5stqiet4
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Hangout link to join the conversation:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >>
> > https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcNwXEyet4Xv_23HiTl
> > > > >> > >> > 4I K0jsM4NlmGy5kbLsPIW3SnOsUEIQ?authuser=0&hl=en
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > See you in 30 minutes.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Michal Mocny
> > > > >> > >> > <mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > >> > >> <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >> +dev list again
> > > > >> > >> >>
> > > > >> > >> >> Not everyone could make 1pm, not everyone
could make 2pm.
> > > > >> > >> >> While I don't think we need a full 2 hours,
I'm hoping to
> > > > >> > >> >> start late and end early -- proving opportunity
people to
> > pop
> > > > >> > >> >> in at either time and chime
> > > > >> > >> in.
> > > > >> > >> >>
> > > > >> > >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Marcel
Kinard
> > > > >> > >> >> <cmarcelk@gmail.com<mailto:cmarcelk@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >>
> > > > >> > >> >>> Is the expected duration 1 hour or
2 hours?
> > > > >> > >> >>>
> > > > >> > >> >>> On Oct 8, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Michal
Mocny
> > > > >> > >><mmocny@chromium.org<mailto:
> > > > >> > >> mmocny@chromium.org>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >>>
> > > > >> > >> >>> > So it looks like Today 1-3 EST
or Friday 1-3 EST are
> the
> > > > >> > >> >>> > best
> > > > >> > >>times.
> > > > >> > >> >>> I'm
> > > > >> > >> >>> > going to start the ball rolling
to do this TODAY, but
> if
> > > > >> > >> >>> > that proves
> > > > >> > >> >>> too
> > > > >> > >> >>> > short notices we'll move it to
Friday.
> > > > >> > >> >>> >
> > > > >> > >> >>> > I'll email out links to hangout
at 12:30 or so, and I'm
> > > > >> > >> >>> > hoping Steven
> > > > >> > >> >>> can
> > > > >> > >> >>> > make it before 2pm since he's
been most active with
> > > > >> > >> >>> > releases
> > > > >> > >> recently.
> > > > >> > >> >>> >
> > > > >> > >> >>> > -Michal
> > > > >> > >> >>>
> > > > >> > >> >>>
> > > > >> > >> >>
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> > >-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> > >For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >?B�KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB�
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >?�?[��X��ܚX�K??K[XZ[?�??]�][��X��ܚX�P?�ܙ?ݘK�\?X�?K�ܙ�B��܈?Y??]?[ۘ[??��[X[�
> > > > >?�??K[XZ[?�??]�Z?[???�ܙ?ݘK�\?X�?K�ܙ�B
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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