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From Joe Bowser <>
Subject Problems with "The Apache Way" and ASF conduct (was Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova)
Date Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:36:02 GMT
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:12 AM, Jim Jagielski <> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <> wrote:
>> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
>> view of the people that I actually care about, our users.  The people
>> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
>> broken and stupid.
>> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
>> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts.  From my
>> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
>> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
>> hangout in theory.  The reality is that we have zero European
>> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
>> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
>> screws over the East Coast.  Before we did hangouts, connect and
>> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
>> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
> The very fact that the PMC is OK with it *now* is immaterial.
> Do you know how many people you are disenfranchising from
> being potential committers/members/users because you are holding
> such "meetings" using hangouts? The PMC should be worried
> not only about the community as it exists today, but to
> also ensure that the community continues to exist long after
> the *current* group of people leave for other things.

Oh really, who are these mythical members that we're disenfranchising?
 People who don't want to use Google because they don't like their
data policies? Those people probably don't have a use for our project
due to the privacy invading nature of modern smart phones.  Technology
in general is disenfranchising by default, and especially technology
with poor UI that encourages poor communication skills like e-mail.

> It's called planning for the future, and sometimes that takes
> time and effort.

I'm pretty sure we're more future friendly than anything that you've
ever been a part of.

>> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
>> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
>> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation.  Whether it's
>> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
>> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
>> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
>> Apache Cordova.  I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
>> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
>> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
>> toxic to things that I see as toxic.  I'm not going to air all the
>> dirty laundry here.
> We have never said that the ASF nor the Apache Way is for everyone.
> So the fact that you know people who were formerly w/ or involved
> in Apache means nothing. Maybe they were controlling dictators who
> couldn't stand allowing other people into their own personal
> sandboxes. Or maybe they were real nice people who just didn't
> like things here in the ASF. I'm not sure. But again, stuff like
> that happens.

I don't want to get into that here, but they weren't controlling
dictators, and I wish people actually paid attention to them when they
were involved because perhaps people would quit trying to intimidate
everyone who disagrees with them, like you tend to do.  Your
aggressive nature here shows exactly what's wrong with Apache.

> It is also obvious that you, and others, already are predisposed
> to being toxic against anything Apache. To you, the Apache Way,
> and old=timers such as myself are clueless, out-of-touch fucktards
> who simply can't understand how real development is done in the
> 21st century. Is that really how you value experience?
> And finally, it was Cordova who decided to come to Apache, not
> the reverse. Considering that the ASF is such a complete and
> total disaster, why???

I think this last part proves my point exactly. I didn't say that you
were "clueless, out-of-touch fucktards", I thing I'm more accurate
saying that some of you are stubborn, ignorant bullies who are intent
on enforcing their way on every project, even if they ave almost
nothing to do with it.  I highly doubt that you would ever use our
project, and I sincerely hope that you don't.

Now, as for the reasons why we joined the ASF, and why I didn't object
at the time, here they are:

1. I didn't know about the internals of Apache before we joined
2. Apache was the only technology-neutral foundation around at the time
3. We needed to "save" PhoneGap because our users felt that the
acquisition of Nitobi by Adobe would have killed the project, and
would have left if we didn't signal that we were serious about keeping
it Open Source.

You know these facts just as well as I do. If we knew that Apache was
so bad, we might have ended up somewhere else.

BTW: Perhaps you should seriously consider toning down your language
and talking in a more civil manner, as well as putting this on a new
thread like I did when people asked. I wouldn't have ripped into you
and the Apache Way so completely if you didn't attack the PMC in your
first e-mail privately, and our chair personally.  I obviously can't
give details because those are private, but I can say that your
reputation is really what earned you the response that you're getting

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