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From James Jong <wjamesj...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Date Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:53:03 GMT
+1 to chair nomination for Shaz.  He will do a great job.

Let’s try and keep this on topic and move the Apache Way discussion to a separate thread.
-James Jong

On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
> view of the people that I actually care about, our users.  The people
> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
> broken and stupid.
> 
> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
> 
> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts.  From my
> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
> hangout in theory.  The reality is that we have zero European
> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
> screws over the East Coast.  Before we did hangouts, connect and
> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
> 
> 2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code
> 
> We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub,
> how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of
> Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova
> updates.  We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and
> people criticize the voting.  We've basically had people criticize
> everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes
> no sense.  If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen
> to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and
> created Cordova.  Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't
> mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly
> loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever
> deserve.  We should do better to listen to them and push back against
> bureaucracy that doesn't make sense.  It's not us being special
> snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user!
> 
> 3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny
> 
> I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny
> (https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7524) because I was privy
> to all the communications sent during the whole
> not-voting-for-releases battle.  Everything is a big fight with
> Apache, especially with people such as Jim.  The first e-mail I
> remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to
> go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board
> works.  Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and
> pathetic.  However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do
> it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of
> the lists that I've seen.
> 
> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation.  Whether it's
> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
> Apache Cordova.  I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
> toxic to things that I see as toxic.  I'm not going to air all the
> dirty laundry here.
> 
> Now, those are probably my main three complaints.  I already know that
> there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people
> think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive.
> I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the
> ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop
> purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project
> in the first place.  If you forwarded me an e-mail, even
> unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who
> created this thing, I'll definitely remember that.
> 
> Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion.
> I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job
> at it.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
>> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
>> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
>> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
>> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
>> nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
>> 
>> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
>> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
>> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
>> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
>> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
>> time.
>> 
>> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
>> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
>> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
>> changing too.
>> 
>> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
>> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
>> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
>> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
>> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
>> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
>> 
>> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
>> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
>> do check the facts.
>> 
>> [1] http://brian.io/slides/codemania-2014/#/16
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>>> project?
>>> 
>>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>>> us out.
>>> Jim - thank you.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol?  While I
>>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>>>> irrelevancy.  I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it.  That
>>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>>>> personally.  This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>>>> not come as any surprise.
>>>> 
>>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>>>> with the nomination?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for
the
>>>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
book
>>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>>> formal
>>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>>> sending an
>>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts
on
>>>>>> http://people.apache.org. Keeping those books is important if some
day
>>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In evaluation of  my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that
is
>>> not
>>>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>>> nominate
>>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>>> since
>>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to
work
>>> on
>>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>>> more
>>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote
if
>>> there
>>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>>> on.
>>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next
week.
>>>>> 
>>> 


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