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From Jim Jagielski <>
Subject Re: Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova
Date Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:12:13 GMT

On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <> wrote:

> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
> view of the people that I actually care about, our users.  The people
> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
> broken and stupid.
> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts.  From my
> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
> hangout in theory.  The reality is that we have zero European
> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
> screws over the East Coast.  Before we did hangouts, connect and
> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.

The very fact that the PMC is OK with it *now* is immaterial.
Do you know how many people you are disenfranchising from
being potential committers/members/users because you are holding
such "meetings" using hangouts? The PMC should be worried
not only about the community as it exists today, but to
also ensure that the community continues to exist long after
the *current* group of people leave for other things.

It's called planning for the future, and sometimes that takes
time and effort.

> 2. Bureaucracy > Community > Code
> We've had numerous users complain about how we had to leave GitHub,
> how hard it is to submit an issue, about API changes because of
> Trademark Issues, and other issues pertaining to Apache Cordova
> updates.  We've had people criticize our fix for the non-voting and
> people criticize the voting.  We've basically had people criticize
> everything that we've done to abide by the Apache Way because it makes
> no sense.  If Community > Code actually meant something, we'd listen
> to all the users we had before we donated PhoneGap to Apache and
> created Cordova.  Just beacuse we're not httpd or OpenOffice doesn't
> mean we don't have an active and passionate userbase that frankly
> loves us and is passionate about this project far more than we ever
> deserve.  We should do better to listen to them and push back against
> bureaucracy that doesn't make sense.  It's not us being special
> snowflakes, it's us fighting for the user!

I will forego the obvious attempt at trolling by lumping
"Bureaucracy" in there, but needed to say, it is kinda
clear that you don't understand much more than the
words "community over code" and lack a clear understanding
of the rationale behind that. Partly it is explained in my
answer to #1, but I could go into much more detail if desired.

If you and others are *really* interested in knowing more,
and not just venting or trolling, let me know.

> 3. Being bad at working with people and projects isn't funny
> I really didn't find the SVN abandoning SVN and adopting Git funny
> ( because I was privy
> to all the communications sent during the whole
> not-voting-for-releases battle.  Everything is a big fight with
> Apache, especially with people such as Jim.  The first e-mail I
> remember receiving from Jim was the cced one basically telling us to
> go pound sand, which is my first impression of how the Apache board
> works.  Being assholes in private or public isn't funny, it's sad and
> pathetic.  However, it appears to be the Apache Way, which is why I do
> it on this list, albeit not nearly as hard as people do it on most of
> the lists that I've seen.

The board is not a fine surgical scalpel. It is a blunt hammer.
When things arise to the level of the board, it is
because there is a problem. A serious problem.

Maybe an analogy would help. Say you have decided to become
orthodox Jewish. You then complain that you can't eat pork, and
that not eating pork is stupid and that you can't see any
reason for it, despite it being a "condition" of being a Jew.
You talk to a rabbi. Do you expect him to say "Of course,
I understand. Please do what you want." or do you expect that
he will say, basically, "pound sand"?

> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation.  Whether it's
> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
> Apache Cordova.  I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
> toxic to things that I see as toxic.  I'm not going to air all the
> dirty laundry here.

We have never said that the ASF nor the Apache Way is for everyone.
So the fact that you know people who were formerly w/ or involved
in Apache means nothing. Maybe they were controlling dictators who
couldn't stand allowing other people into their own personal
sandboxes. Or maybe they were real nice people who just didn't
like things here in the ASF. I'm not sure. But again, stuff like
that happens.

It is also obvious that you, and others, already are predisposed
to being toxic against anything Apache. To you, the Apache Way,
and old=timers such as myself are clueless, out-of-touch fucktards
who simply can't understand how real development is done in the
21st century. Is that really how you value experience?

And finally, it was Cordova who decided to come to Apache, not
the reverse. Considering that the ASF is such a complete and
total disaster, why???

> Now, those are probably my main three complaints.  I already know that
> there's going to be some defence about not caring what other people
> think and popularity contests, and I don't view that as productive.
> I'm not asking everyone to sing kumbaya, but it would be nice if the
> ASF, and those trying to curry favour with the ASF, would stop
> purposely trying to alienate the people who helped create this project
> in the first place.  If you forwarded me an e-mail, even
> unintentionally where you were abusive to myself or other people who
> created this thing, I'll definitely remember that.
> Now, I think I derailed this thread enough with my personal opinion.
> I think Shaz should be our chair because I think he'll do a good job
> at it.
> Joe
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Brian LeRoux <> wrote:
>> Coming from Joe's perspective this is year 6 of the source code now known
>> as Cordova. Jim and others have as much merit in our world as we clearly do
>> in theirs. It is not uncalled for and very obvious where the sentiment
>> comes from. Members of the board care deeply about Apache and we care
>> deeply about Cordova. Finding a respectful and productive balance would be
>> nice though clearly this is not mandatory.
>> Anyhow, the very concept of PMC was always intended to be no different than
>> committer in Cordova. This was understood and acknowledged during
>> incubation. Despite the language of meritocracy there's a hierarchical
>> pyramid at Apache (Contributor->Committer->PMC->Member) and we very
>> deliberately chose to incorporate Committer and PMC Member at the same
>> time.
>> If you are good enough to land a patch you are good enough to be involved
>> in the releasing of it. We have always intended to continue with a flat
>> structure though given recent board "help" with releasing I could see this
>> changing too.
>> Simply put, ideally there is zero barrier to contribute and ship. Anything
>> that gets in the way of contribution and releasing is inviting higher
>> chance of project failure. Some of the Apache rules are build up of old
>> policy that has become meaningless ceremony. We need to get better at
>> acknowledging that for what it is and fixing Apache. (Another example would
>> be eradicating the harmful concepts in meritocracy.)
>> But back at Jim's comment: yes I very much do believe Shaz lives up the
>> conveniently vague term "The Apache Way" as I understand it [1] but please
>> do check the facts.
>> [1]
>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Grieve <> wrote:
>>> Joe - totally uncalled for. Not sure where it even came from. If you
>>> hate Apache so much, then why are you a *volunteer* on an Apache
>>> project?
>>> I'm fairly confident that there is not a good understanding of what it
>>> means to be a PMC, or PMC chair, and Jim is spending his time to help
>>> us out.
>>> Jim - thank you.
>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Joe Bowser <> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Jim Jagielski <> wrote:
>>>>> There is one other aspect of the chair which, for a somewhat
>>>>> newish PMC is important: The entire PMC is responsible for
>>>>> ensuring that the project is run in a way which abides by,
>>>>> and embraces, the "Apache Way"... when it doesn't, the
>>>>> Chair needs to (1) know that the PMC is going awry and
>>>>> (2) encourage the PMC to fix those problems and (3)
>>>>> interact w/ the board if the PMC needs help in doing so.
>>>> So, who is to protect the PMC from yourself and rest of the board
>>>> trying to destroy the project with insults and vitriol?  While I
>>>> believe that Shazron is up to the task, I'm convinced that "The Apache
>>>> Way" is the worst way to run a software project, and that the Apache
>>>> Board spends all their time trying to find ways to debate itself into
>>>> irrelevancy.  I wish that we never joined the ASF, and honestly when
>>>> you told us that we should leave months ago, I welcomed it.  That
>>>> being said, we're still here, despite your best efforts. We've seen
>>>> what happens when the board tries to help, and it generally pisses a
>>>> bunch of committers off, and ends up with people insulting each other
>>>> personally.  This response to your first e-mail on this list should
>>>> not come as any surprise.
>>>> The fact is that Shaz fits well, because unlike me, he is diplomatic
>>>> and won't tell you to jump off a cliff every time you or any other
>>>> Apache person comes in and tries to interfere with our project.
>>>>> Not knowing Shaz personally, how does that all fit in
>>>>> with the nomination?
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Brian LeRoux <> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Cordova community. To this point I've served as the chair for
>>>>>> Cordova PMC.
>>>>>> The duties of chair are solely administrative: board reports, and
>>>>>> keeping of committer nominations. Some projects at Apache have more
>>> formal
>>>>>> incantations. We have, so far, preferred to maintain our lightweight
>>>>>> approach meaning a committer is a PMC member too. This involves
>>> sending an
>>>>>> email, updating a text file in SVN, and running a few perl scripts
>>>>>> Keeping those books is important if some
>>>>>> there is a dispute to the veracity of our source.
>>>>>> In evaluation of  my current workload these additional book keeping
>>>>>> responsibilities are not appropriate for me to prioritize and that
>>> not
>>>>>> fair to Cordova.
>>>>>> I'm going to step down as chair for Cordova and I would like to
>>> nominate
>>>>>> Shazron Abdullha to take on the role. Shaz has been with the project
>>> since
>>>>>> before it was called Cordova. He lands more code than most, interacts
>>>>>> directly with the community more than anyone, and is committed to
>>> on
>>>>>> Cordova solely full time. He'll be a better chair than I ever was.
>>>>>> I won't be going anywhere and (I hope!) this means I can contribute
>>> more
>>>>>> code than emails in the future. We can be formal and go to a vote
>>> there
>>>>>> is objection or interest in seeing someone else take the admin duties
>>> on.
>>>>>> Otherwise, I'll aim to shoot the board official notice early next

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