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From Jim Jagielski <>
Subject Re: Problems with "The Apache Way" and ASF conduct (was Nomination for a new chair for Apache Cordova)
Date Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:48:38 GMT
I'm not feeding the troll. Contact me off-list if you are
serious about wanting true answers to these questions.

On Apr 23, 2014, at 10:36 AM, Joe Bowser <> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 6:12 AM, Jim Jagielski <> wrote:
>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 3:09 AM, Joe Bowser <> wrote:
>>> I think I need to go into why I don't like "The Apache Way" from the
>>> view of the people that I actually care about, our users.  The people
>>> who talk to me at conventions, and wonder why things are so slow,
>>> broken and stupid.
>>> 1. All communication on the e-mail list
>>> We've been breaking this one with Google Hangouts.  From my
>>> understanding we can't make any decision on the Google Hangout because
>>> that is against the Apache Way and some committer can't make the
>>> hangout in theory.  The reality is that we have zero European
>>> contributors and we manage to accomodate Tommy though magic of him
>>> either being able to not sleep, or us picking a weird ass time that
>>> screws over the East Coast.  Before we did hangouts, connect and
>>> conference calls on a more regular basis and it was easier for us to
>>> actually work on shit together instead of being in weird silos.
>> The very fact that the PMC is OK with it *now* is immaterial.
>> Do you know how many people you are disenfranchising from
>> being potential committers/members/users because you are holding
>> such "meetings" using hangouts? The PMC should be worried
>> not only about the community as it exists today, but to
>> also ensure that the community continues to exist long after
>> the *current* group of people leave for other things.
> Oh really, who are these mythical members that we're disenfranchising?
> People who don't want to use Google because they don't like their
> data policies? Those people probably don't have a use for our project
> due to the privacy invading nature of modern smart phones.  Technology
> in general is disenfranchising by default, and especially technology
> with poor UI that encourages poor communication skills like e-mail.
>> It's called planning for the future, and sometimes that takes
>> time and effort.
> I'm pretty sure we're more future friendly than anything that you've
> ever been a part of.
>>> I know that people don't care what anyone thinks of them, but that's a
>>> bad attitude when you're trying to attract contributors, and when
>>> you're trying to attract projects to the foundation.  Whether it's
>>> hangover posts from the Git war, or other posts bemoaning the Apache
>>> culture of RTFM when it comes to its arcane policies, this is actively
>>> discouraging people from being involved with Apache at all, including
>>> Apache Cordova.  I have some friends who were formerly with Apache, or
>>> associated with the ASF that aren't because of it's toxic culture, and
>>> it pisses me off that aspects of it continue, so yeah, I'm pretty
>>> toxic to things that I see as toxic.  I'm not going to air all the
>>> dirty laundry here.
>> We have never said that the ASF nor the Apache Way is for everyone.
>> So the fact that you know people who were formerly w/ or involved
>> in Apache means nothing. Maybe they were controlling dictators who
>> couldn't stand allowing other people into their own personal
>> sandboxes. Or maybe they were real nice people who just didn't
>> like things here in the ASF. I'm not sure. But again, stuff like
>> that happens.
> I don't want to get into that here, but they weren't controlling
> dictators, and I wish people actually paid attention to them when they
> were involved because perhaps people would quit trying to intimidate
> everyone who disagrees with them, like you tend to do.  Your
> aggressive nature here shows exactly what's wrong with Apache.
>> It is also obvious that you, and others, already are predisposed
>> to being toxic against anything Apache. To you, the Apache Way,
>> and old=timers such as myself are clueless, out-of-touch fucktards
>> who simply can't understand how real development is done in the
>> 21st century. Is that really how you value experience?
>> And finally, it was Cordova who decided to come to Apache, not
>> the reverse. Considering that the ASF is such a complete and
>> total disaster, why???
> I think this last part proves my point exactly. I didn't say that you
> were "clueless, out-of-touch fucktards", I thing I'm more accurate
> saying that some of you are stubborn, ignorant bullies who are intent
> on enforcing their way on every project, even if they ave almost
> nothing to do with it.  I highly doubt that you would ever use our
> project, and I sincerely hope that you don't.
> Now, as for the reasons why we joined the ASF, and why I didn't object
> at the time, here they are:
> 1. I didn't know about the internals of Apache before we joined
> 2. Apache was the only technology-neutral foundation around at the time
> 3. We needed to "save" PhoneGap because our users felt that the
> acquisition of Nitobi by Adobe would have killed the project, and
> would have left if we didn't signal that we were serious about keeping
> it Open Source.
> You know these facts just as well as I do. If we knew that Apache was
> so bad, we might have ended up somewhere else.
> BTW: Perhaps you should seriously consider toning down your language
> and talking in a more civil manner, as well as putting this on a new
> thread like I did when people asked. I wouldn't have ripped into you
> and the Apache Way so completely if you didn't attack the PMC in your
> first e-mail privately, and our chair personally.  I obviously can't
> give details because those are private, but I can say that your
> reputation is really what earned you the response that you're getting
> now.

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