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From Mike Billau <mike.bil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:40:44 GMT
Mike Sierra made a good point here[1] that throughout the docs it will
probably be better to not explicitly refer to those names and instead use
causual references to "cross-platform" or "platform-centered" workflows and
then link to the Overview section, where these workflows are explicit and
the differences explained. This way if we end up changing the names or
adding more workflows, we only have to change this section.

[1]https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/pull/140#discussion_r7437249


On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org> wrote:

> Closest we came to consensus was:
>
> "Web Project Dev"
> vs
> "Native Platform Dev"
>
> Though I wouldn't say that that was nailed down (just a few +1's here and
> there).
>
> -Michal
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Dan Moore <moore234@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Did the nomenclature to help users distinguish between cordova cli and
> the
> > older create scripts ever get nailed down?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Monday, October 21, 2013 2:33 PM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > +1 to Native Platform Dev vs Web Project Dev
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Axel Nennker <ignisvulpis@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > > Although I was about to suggest "single platform development" and
> "multi
> > > platform development".
> > >
> > > Axel
> > > Am 21.10.2013 19:36 schrieb "Brian LeRoux" <b@brian.io>:
> > >
> > > > I think we need to be explicit, not talk about legacy or magic. I'd
> > like
> > > to
> > > > propose:
> > > >
> > > > Native Platform Dev -- Build Cordova apps on the metal. No helpers
> for
> > > > moving across platforms.
> > > > Web Project Dev -- Build web first projects that (mostly) treats
> native
> > > > projects as build artifacts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > braden@chromium.org
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Whoops, forgot my citation:
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > > > braden@chromium.org
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Less Magic" (bin/create, Plugman) and "More Magic" (CLI).[1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike Billau's suggestions look decent to me. How about "classic"
> > > > instead
> > > > > > of "legacy"? Removes the "it sucks and will die someday"
> > connotation,
> > > > > since
> > > > > > that's not true.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Braden
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Mike Billau <
> > mike.billau@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Lets make the name as confusing as possible, to live up
to our
> > > history
> > > > > >> (callback, phonegap, cordova.) ;)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Personally I think that the names should try to describe
the
> > > > difference
> > > > > >> between the workflows instead of trying to prescribe some
type
> of
> > > > usage,
> > > > > >> since there are unknown and developing use cases.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> To me the main difference between the workflows is that
with the
> > > CLI,
> > > > > >> things get merged for you automatically, so I'm in favor
of
> > > something
> > > > > like
> > > > > >> "CLI/Merges Workflow" and "Non-CLI/Legacy Workflow", and
in the
> > very
> > > > > first
> > > > > >> sentence of "Non-CLI/Legacy" we say "It's called "Legacy"
> because
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > >> the pre-3.0 worfklow, not because it is no longer supported."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Michal, we created an item to track the doc changes:
> > > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-5122  I think the
bulk
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >> workflow discussion can fit into the "Development Paths"
section
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > >> main Overview Guide. I'll get started but will continue
to
> monitor
> > > > this
> > > > > >> thread.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Michal Mocny <
> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > (Okay, this thread at high risk of bikeshedding, just
going to
> > > > mention
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > >> > ;)  But I do think it would be great to settle once
and for
> all.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I like the distinction Steven/Brian are making: Project
flow
> vs
> > > > > Platform
> > > > > >> > flow.  I'm not sure that those names are immediately
100%
> clear
> > > > (I'll
> > > > > >> > ponder over it) but I like the focus points.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I think Ian nails the description:  "CLI encourages
the "Your
> > > > cordova
> > > > > >> web
> > > > > >> > view *IS* your application" mindset"
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I don't have a big preference one way or the other
regarding
> > > > attaching
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > word "legacy" to the Platform Flow.  I like that it
conveys:
> > "the
> > > > flow
> > > > > >> you
> > > > > >> > are used to" and "there exists a new flow now that
you should
> > > > > evaluate"
> > > > > >> but
> > > > > >> > I don't like that it may also convey "this flow is
going to be
> > > > > >> deprecated"
> > > > > >> > which I don't think is true.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Whatever we call it, I think its important to signal
that
> > Platform
> > > > > >> workflow
> > > > > >> > is for supporting "mucking with platform internals"
not for
> > > "single
> > > > > >> > platform dev".  Single platform dev can be done using
CLI just
> > as
> > > > > >> easily.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Should we create a wiki/doc which explains the flow
and lists
> > the
> > > > > >> > pros/cons?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Ian Clelland <
> > > iclelland@google.com
> > > > >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Legacy, though, sounds like it's something that
we're
> actively
> > > > > moving
> > > > > >> > away
> > > > > >> > > from; something that we support only grudgingly,
and which
> we
> > > > might
> > > > > >> > > deprecate at the drop of a hat.
> > > > > >> > > The platform-only workflow supports legitimate
use-cases
> which
> > > CLI
> > > > > >> > probably
> > > > > >> > > will never cover -- things like embedding a cordova
web view
> > > > inside
> > > > > >> of a
> > > > > >> > > larger platform-native project.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The major difference I see with CLI is that it
encourages
> the
> > > > "Your
> > > > > >> > cordova
> > > > > >> > > web view *IS* your application" mindset. (And
if that's
> true,
> > > then
> > > > > why
> > > > > >> > > wouldn't you aim for cross-platform development?)
The
> pre-CLI
> > > > > >> workflow is
> > > > > >> > > still the way to build all other sorts of applications.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Ian
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:30 PM, purplecabbage
<
> > > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > > I like merge-flow and legacy-flow
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Carlos
Santana <
> > > > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Cross Platform -> use Merge Flow
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Single Platform -> use Legacy Flow
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Using "Multi Platform or Cross Platform"
is also fine
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Using "Flow or Mode" is also fine
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013, Brian
LeRoux wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> Ya, to me the difference is that
one workflow embraces
> > the
> > > > > native
> > > > > >> > > > platform
> > > > > >> > > > >> and tooling (plugman and bin/scripts)
while the other
> > > focuses
> > > > > on
> > > > > >> > > > building a
> > > > > >> > > > >> web project (cli/merges/etc).
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> As a dev, if I'm ONLY worried about
one platform (like
> a
> > > > > Cordova
> > > > > >> > > > >> implementor or many of our community
folk) then
> > bin/scripts
> > > > > >> > suffices.
> > > > > >> > > As
> > > > > >> > > > >> soon as I'm concerned with more
than one platform the
> CLI
> > > > > >> workflows
> > > > > >> > > kick
> > > > > >> > > > >> in. That was the use case anyhow.
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:21 PM,
Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >>> Brian suggested Project Development
(CLI workflow) vs
> > > > Platform
> > > > > >> > > > >> Development
> > > > > >> > > > >>> (bin/scripts)
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:09
PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> We need more suggestions!
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> Anis suggested picking to
arbitrary names that don't
> > > > reflect
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > >>> workflows
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> but would be easy to refer
to.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at
12:41 PM, Michal Mocny <
> > > > > >> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> I use the IDE with the
CLI and hope to make it
> better.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> In my mind, the old
way is for making platform
> > > > > modifications,
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > >> > > > >>> new
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> way threads platforms/
as a build artifact.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you must control
the platform code, you sacrifice
> > > easy
> > > > > >> > upgrades
> > > > > >> > > > and
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> ease
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> of multi-platform development,
but gain control.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you want to use the
CLI, you lose the ability to
> > make
> > > > > >> > > > modifications
> > > > > >> > > > >>> to
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> directly platform code
without worrying about the
> > > > > >> implications.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> -Michal
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013
at 3:18 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I like that better.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I know that both
methods use the command line, but
> > the
> > > > > >> > cordova-cli
> > > > > >> > > > >> has
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> cli
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> in its name! We
call the tool the cordova-cli so it
> > > might
> > > > > be
> > > > > >> > more
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> confusing
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> going away from
that and calling it anything else.
> > Not
> > > > > >> saying we
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> shouldn't
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> be open to a name
change though just because we
> > called
> > > > it X
> > > > > >> > since
> > > > > >> > > > >> its
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> inception (or am
I saying that? :P).
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> When we write the
docs about the other workflow
> > > > > (bin/create,
> > > > > >> > > > >> plugman),
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> maybe making the
IDE an integral part of it would
> > make
> > > it
> > > > > >> make
> > > > > >> > > more
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> sense
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> calling that workflow
IDE. Just a thought.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct
18, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Jesse <
> > > > > >> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> IDE or cordova-cli
??
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> @purplecabbage
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> risingj.com
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct
18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > > > >>> stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> I think
SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is
> > misleading
> > > > > >> because
> > > > > >> > > > >> you
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> can
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> use
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> the CLI
to do single platform development.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri,
Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <
> > > > > >> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform
vs MultiPlatform makes the most
> > sense
> > > > to
> > > > > >> me.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform
= Focus on a single platform, and
> > use
> > > > > >> plugman
> > > > > >> > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> platform
scripts directly. Useful when you only
> > have
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> particular
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> device
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test
on, or only have access to that device's
> > > > > >> marketplace.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> Also
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> useful
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> for
platform developers who are focused
> primarily
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > > >> native
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> code.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> ( aka
DivideAndConquer )
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > > >> > > > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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