Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B12A91051A for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:15:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 38666 invoked by uid 500); 18 Oct 2013 17:14:56 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-cordova-dev-archive@cordova.apache.org Received: (qmail 38558 invoked by uid 500); 18 Oct 2013 17:14:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@cordova.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@cordova.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@cordova.apache.org Received: (qmail 38528 invoked by uid 99); 18 Oct 2013 17:14:53 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:14:53 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: domain of anis.kadri@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.53 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.220.53] (HELO mail-pa0-f53.google.com) (209.85.220.53) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:14:46 +0000 Received: by mail-pa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id kq14so4838907pab.26 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:14:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ExQc6af4Fb5KmrvPbuoiEYaKbC4CKUprs7Fpf+1l0gA=; b=jh7pHUcD5lOuIrCfzTy3LgXyliP3Mmt9ePq4Ufk9769m/X8e+egc0Eg/TJen9UY1Sn jHUuOAPa1w1TmfgZ6/cGNOg6reopv59y3kY+Urm56YR3Kxtpblk8gvz8Md+rRPn2vAxN 9CTQ5+nSfqf3ia7yxpvD5IPDuOtT+BIe6ZSvjIymDWHV8BjKnFTDAHdUIMtB9rWT2Mit V44Gma1HZVFNp/YgWwLiK0+bjucv2YW2rB1U5KpayqJJ0ih7olG0BV+HvL5IuAbx4F9z p2HGuMm20QY1J6x0uov6a+uV/Oy0Vnq7CCx0j//RooFoc/COpUGn+SPzEoxOc+MROLD+ VhYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.58.137 with SMTP id r9mr4090715pbq.148.1382116465203; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.26.112 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.26.112 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:14:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1F75B71F-21D3-4998-A488-E85209ECB157@sap.com> <3C2399F1-DACC-462E-87F8-89FF55CF7BBB@pulse-robotics.com> <845affbc987030aeb660ff0c10656d5d@services.senegate.at> <6abfc174dffe4e418838c6e8e6337a1c@DBXPR03MB159.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <2619C1CC-7677-4183-B479-330E3D449B85@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:14:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk From: Anis KADRI To: dev@cordova.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544ef22f26a1d04e9071039 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --bcaec544ef22f26a1d04e9071039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erik that's great! Where can we download it? On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" wrote: > Awesome video!! > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit > wrote: > > > On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice wizard in > > eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DQUyUUtmTYok > > > > On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE wrote: > > > > > Great Bryan > > > Totally agree !!! > > > > > > Cordialement. > > > ------------------------------- > > > Maxime LUCE - Somatic > > > maxime.luce@somatic.fr > > > 06 28 60 72 34 > > > ________________________________ > > > De : Brian LeRoux > > > Envoy=E9 : 18/10/2013 01:48 > > > =C0 : dev@cordova.apache.org > > > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk > > > > > > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users, o= r > > build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The origins = of > > these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct > > experience. > > > > > > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine, o= f > > course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a > deliberate > > learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both > > approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform will be > > canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real examp= le > > of Conway's Law btw. [1] > > > > > > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, and > > we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very diver= se > > community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web designers. W= e > > need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to each > > other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it is > our > > perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up. > > > > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law > > > > > > > > > [Inline image 1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams > > wrote: > > > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in in > > > support of the CLI. > > > > > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would li= ke > > to > > > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the C= LI > > > Kool-Aid since its infancy. > > > > > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is > just a > > > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing > together > > > with Grunt). > > > > > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as well > > and a > > > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to white > > label > > > it with relative ease. > > > > > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate its > use > > > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel. > > > > > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the discussio= n. > > > > > > - tommy / devgeeks > > > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" > anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both > > >> approaches should be supported :-) > > >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana < > csantana23@gmail.com > > > > > >> wrote: > > >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do somethi= ng > > >> like > > >>> "cordova platform add ios --path=3D"./cordova_components/cordova-io= s" > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana < > csantana23@gmail.com > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> ++1 "to install from a given directory instead of .cordova/libs." > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras < > viras@users.sourceforge.net > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure out how > the > > >> CLI > > >>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two bugs for t= he > > WPX > > >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows 8 CLI code= ). > > But > > >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once you are > used > > >> to > > >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those old > > documents > > >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for the > > different > > >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go... :) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Best, > > >>>>> Wolfgang > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that you've > > >> figured > > >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks of the > new > > >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity for you. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult for every > > developer > > >> to > > >>>>>> learn what you already have. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -Michal > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras < > > viras@users.sourceforge.net> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> my view on this discussion: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version of GOFG Sports > > >> Computer > > >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges" directory is a > > >> fantastic > > >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript code using > e.g. > > >> the > > >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform specific co= de > > >> from > > >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure - which is wha= t > > >> Cordova > > >>>>>>> should be about. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean code (not implyin= g > > that > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you need something > > >> native > > >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes the code reusable= ) > - > > no > > >>>>>>> need > > >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this also makes > > >> upgrading > > >>>>>>> cordova much easier. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've simply added > Android > > >> as a > > >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for fiddling around > > with > > >>>>>>> SDK / > > >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it). So CLI is my > > favorite > > >>>>>>> way > > >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than the old > approach > > >> (in > > >>>>>>> my > > >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around with project > > >>>>>>> settings, > > >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins, 5 official plugin= s > > and > > >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello World" > > application.... > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work with the nati= ve > > >> IDEs > > >>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong since you can > always > > >> go > > >>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects using > > their > > >>>>>>> native > > >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g. plugin > development). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported - but don'= t > > make > > >>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only! > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>> Wolfgang > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny < > mmocny@chromium.org > > > > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to highlight that both > > >>>>>>>>> directions > > >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold. We've done our best to support bin/ > > >> scripts > > >>>>>>>>> post > > >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI should not be used with > > >> IDE", or > > >>>>>>>>> "CLI > > >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something trivial" are being thro= wn > > >>>>>>>>> around, > > >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I don't think its fair > that > > >> some > > >>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>> us > > >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with our users at all, so I > > >> don't > > >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated. When users communicate > their > > >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like this > > >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**< > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**> > > >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731 > http://www.infil00p.org/config-**> > > >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731< > > >> > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-1= 0731 > > >>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ) > > >>>>>>>> and this > > >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-***= * > < > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**> > > >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694 < > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**> > > >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694< > > >> > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10= 694 > > >>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ). > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect, I strive to > > learn > > >>>>>>>> its > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn it. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for me, or developers li= ke > > me > > >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when things fail. I > avoided > > >>>>>>>> having any part in its development because I thought it was th= e > > >> wrong > > >>>>>>>> way to do things. I assumed that the majority of users actual= ly > > >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to work around this, > but > > >> with > > >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the blog posts and so= me > > >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that this is a feature > > very > > >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually have never > tried > > >>>>>>>> that. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works well post-3.0, or > does > > >> Joe > > >>>>>>>>> have > > >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository to make sur= e > > that > > >>>>>>>> this still works. However, I would like to see this test case > > >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate to have > CordovaActivity > > >> be > > >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or for both to be > > supported. > > >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications and deal > with > > >> the > > >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint with Android UI > > guidelines > > >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it. I'll probably bring this up and > > >> present > > >>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain why we need this > > feature > > >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's important to respect > the > > >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect the web. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Carlos Santana > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Carlos Santana > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > --bcaec544ef22f26a1d04e9071039--