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From "Wargo, John" <john.wa...@sap.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:24:13 GMT
To plugman or not to plugman, that is the question.

Or

Different styles of plugin management.  

John M. Wargo

> On Oct 18, 2013, at 3:03 PM, "Steven Gill" <stevengill97@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is misleading because you can use
> the CLI to do single platform development.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <purplecabbage@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> SinglePlatform vs MultiPlatform makes the most sense to me.
>> 
>> SinglePlatform = Focus on a single platform, and use plugman and the
>> platform scripts directly. Useful when you only have that particular device
>> to test on, or only have access to that device's marketplace.  Also useful
>> for platform developers who are focused primarily on the native code.
>> ( aka DivideAndConquer )
>> 
>> MultiPlatform = Build your app for a bunch of platforms at the same time.
>> Great for when you know you are targeting multiple stores/devices.
>> ( aka DucksInARow or MagicBullet )
>> 
>> I tend to lean towards the SinglePlatform, so maybe someone else could
>> enumerate more Multi benefits.
>> 
>> 
>> @purplecabbage
>> risingj.com
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> John: If you decided to take a stab a blogging about it, please think
>> about
>>> blogging on the cordova site! We can all review it before publishing it
>>> too!
>>> 
>>> Erik: that video was awesome! Let me know when Gorkem does a release and
>> I
>>> can post it on the cordova twitter feed.
>>> 
>>> Michal: Could just be CLI vs Plugman workflow
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I wonder if we should not work out better names for the two workflows.
>>>> Both are kinda command-line-based so saying "CLI" vs "old" is
>> confusing.
>>>> As is saying "the bin/ script flow" confusing.  Not sure if "multi" vs
>>>> "single" platform flow is any better, since you can use both flows for
>>> one
>>>> or more platforms.
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, if we have more obvious/catchy names, then we can be more clear
>>> in
>>>> our communications which flow our answers are relevant to.  i.e., "use
>>>> plugman to ... (only for ___ flow)".  i.e., "Be carefully when editing
>> in
>>>> IDE ... (only for ___ flow)".
>>>> 
>>>> -Michal
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Anis KADRI <anis.kadri@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Erik that's great! Where can we download it?
>>>>> On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" <agrieve@chromium.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Awesome video!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <
>> edewit@redhat.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice
>>> wizard
>>>> in
>>>>>>> eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr>
wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Great Bryan
>>>>>>>> Totally agree !!!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Cordialement.
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Maxime LUCE - Somatic
>>>>>>>> maxime.luce@somatic.fr
>>>>>>>> 06 28 60 72 34
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
>>>>>>>> Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48
>>>>>>>> À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to
our
>>> users,
>>>>> or
>>>>>>> build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The
>>>> origins
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and
>> direct
>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project
is
>>> fine,
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also
a
>>>>>> deliberate
>>>>>>> learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies
>> both
>>>>>>> approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform
>>> will
>>>> be
>>>>>>> canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very
real
>>>>> example
>>>>>>> of Conway's Law btw. [1]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report
>> them,
>>>> and
>>>>>>> we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a
very
>>>>> diverse
>>>>>>> community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web
>>> designers.
>>>>> We
>>>>>>> need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate
to
>>>> each
>>>>>>> other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day,
>> it
>>>> is
>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [Inline image 1]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <
>>>> tommy@devgeeks.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to
chime
>>> in
>>>> in
>>>>>>>> support of the CLI.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app,
I
>>> would
>>>>> like
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers
of
>>> the
>>>>> CLI
>>>>>>>> Kool-Aid since its infancy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/*
>>> is
>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>> build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole
thing
>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>> with Grunt).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins
>> as
>>>> well
>>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>>> few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability
to
>>>> white
>>>>>>> label
>>>>>>>> it with relative ease.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly
>> advocate
>>>> its
>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the
>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - tommy / devgeeks
>>>>>>>> On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com
>> <mailto:
>>>>>>> anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?)
that both
>>>>>>>>> approaches should be supported :-)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <
>>>>>> csantana23@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow
also to do
>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> "cordova platform add ios
>>>> --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <
>>>>>> csantana23@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead
of
>>>> .cordova/libs."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <
>>>>>> viras@users.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some
time to figure
>> out
>>>> how
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> CLI
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix
one or two bugs
>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> WPX
>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as
the Windows 8
>> CLI
>>>>> code).
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since
I think once
>> you
>>>> are
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still
have those
>> old
>>>>>>> documents
>>>>>>>>>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE
projects for
>> the
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the
way to go... :)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy
to see that
>>>> you've
>>>>>>>>> figured
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and
avoid the drawbacks
>> of
>>>> the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased
productivity
>> for
>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too
difficult for
>> every
>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn what you already have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Michal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras
<
>>>>>>> viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my view on this discussion:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the
latest version of GOFG
>>>> Sports
>>>>>>>>> Computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for
the "merges" directory
>>> is
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> fantastic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus
on the javascript code
>>> using
>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle
all my platform
>>> specific
>>>>> code
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory
structure - which
>> is
>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to
write clean code (not
>>>>> implying
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other method forces to write messy
code). If you need
>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which
also makes the code
>>>>> reusable)
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects
code - this also
>>> makes
>>>>>>>>> upgrading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova much easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone
version I've simply
>> added
>>>>>> Android
>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done
- no need for fiddling
>>>> around
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK /
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing
it). So CLI is
>>> my
>>>>>>> favorite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more
powerful than the old
>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>>> (in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from
fiddling around with
>>>> project
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> settings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform
release.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom
plugins, 5 official
>>>>> plugins
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond
the "Hello World"
>>>>>>> application....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't
possible to work with
>> the
>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>> IDEs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with their own projects - this is
simply wrong since you
>>> can
>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open
the platform-projects
>>>> using
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself
for e.g. plugin
>>>>>> development).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions
should be supported -
>> but
>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs"
only!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe
Bowser:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM,
Michal Mocny <
>>>>>> mmocny@chromium.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its
important to highlight
>> that
>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.
 We've done our best to
>> support
>>>> bin/
>>>>>>>>> scripts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements
like "CLI should not be
>> used
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> IDE", or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "CLI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing
something trivial" are
>> being
>>>>> thrown
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion,
and I don't think its
>>> fair
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are promoting that message
to users.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating
with our users at
>> all,
>>>> so I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated.
 When users
>>> communicate
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something
like this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>> http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
>>>>>>>>> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://
>>>>> www.infil00p.org/config-**<
>>>>>>> http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>> http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**
>>>>> www.infil00p.org/introducing-**
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while
its not perfect, I
>> strive
>>>> to
>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better,
not condemn it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed
for me, or
>>> developers
>>>>> like
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of
output when things fail.
>> I
>>>>>> avoided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having any part in its development
because I thought it
>>> was
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed
that the majority of users
>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should
do my best to work around
>>>> this,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting,
such as the blog posts
>>> and
>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups,
it seems that this is a
>>>> feature
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView
use case, I actually have
>>> never
>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make
sure it works well
>> post-3.0,
>>> or
>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing
this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the
Android repository to
>> make
>>>>> sure
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this still works.  However, I
would like to see this
>> test
>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more
appropriate to have
>>>>>> CordovaActivity
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface,
or for both to be
>>>>>>> supported.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more
hybrid applications and
>>>> deal
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint
with Android
>> UI
>>>>>>> guidelines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.
 I'll probably bring this
>> up
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready
to explain why we need
>>> this
>>>>>>> feature
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks,
and why it's important to
>>>> respect
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform
doesn't respect the
>> web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by
Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>> 

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