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From Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:32:51 GMT
+1 to Native Platform Dev vs Web Project Dev


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Axel Nennker <ignisvulpis@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1
> Although I was about to suggest "single platform development" and "multi
> platform development".
>
> Axel
> Am 21.10.2013 19:36 schrieb "Brian LeRoux" <b@brian.io>:
>
> > I think we need to be explicit, not talk about legacy or magic. I'd like
> to
> > propose:
> >
> > Native Platform Dev -- Build Cordova apps on the metal. No helpers for
> > moving across platforms.
> > Web Project Dev -- Build web first projects that (mostly) treats native
> > projects as build artifacts.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Braden Shepherdson <braden@chromium.org
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Whoops, forgot my citation:
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > braden@chromium.org
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Less Magic" (bin/create, Plugman) and "More Magic" (CLI).[1]
> > > >
> > > > Mike Billau's suggestions look decent to me. How about "classic"
> > instead
> > > > of "legacy"? Removes the "it sucks and will die someday" connotation,
> > > since
> > > > that's not true.
> > > >
> > > > Braden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Mike Billau <mike.billau@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Lets make the name as confusing as possible, to live up to our
> history
> > > >> (callback, phonegap, cordova.) ;)
> > > >>
> > > >> Personally I think that the names should try to describe the
> > difference
> > > >> between the workflows instead of trying to prescribe some type of
> > usage,
> > > >> since there are unknown and developing use cases.
> > > >>
> > > >> To me the main difference between the workflows is that with the
> CLI,
> > > >> things get merged for you automatically, so I'm in favor of
> something
> > > like
> > > >> "CLI/Merges Workflow" and "Non-CLI/Legacy Workflow", and in the very
> > > first
> > > >> sentence of "Non-CLI/Legacy" we say "It's called "Legacy" because
it
> > was
> > > >> the pre-3.0 worfklow, not because it is no longer supported."
> > > >>
> > > >> Michal, we created an item to track the doc changes:
> > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-5122  I think the bulk of
> > the
> > > >> workflow discussion can fit into the "Development Paths" section in
> > the
> > > >> main Overview Guide. I'll get started but will continue to monitor
> > this
> > > >> thread.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > (Okay, this thread at high risk of bikeshedding, just going to
> > mention
> > > >> that
> > > >> > ;)  But I do think it would be great to settle once and for all.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I like the distinction Steven/Brian are making: Project flow
vs
> > > Platform
> > > >> > flow.  I'm not sure that those names are immediately 100% clear
> > (I'll
> > > >> > ponder over it) but I like the focus points.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I think Ian nails the description:  "CLI encourages the "Your
> > cordova
> > > >> web
> > > >> > view *IS* your application" mindset"
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I don't have a big preference one way or the other regarding
> > attaching
> > > >> the
> > > >> > word "legacy" to the Platform Flow.  I like that it conveys:
"the
> > flow
> > > >> you
> > > >> > are used to" and "there exists a new flow now that you should
> > > evaluate"
> > > >> but
> > > >> > I don't like that it may also convey "this flow is going to be
> > > >> deprecated"
> > > >> > which I don't think is true.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Whatever we call it, I think its important to signal that Platform
> > > >> workflow
> > > >> > is for supporting "mucking with platform internals" not for
> "single
> > > >> > platform dev".  Single platform dev can be done using CLI just
as
> > > >> easily.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Should we create a wiki/doc which explains the flow and lists
the
> > > >> > pros/cons?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Ian Clelland <
> iclelland@google.com
> > >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Legacy, though, sounds like it's something that we're actively
> > > moving
> > > >> > away
> > > >> > > from; something that we support only grudgingly, and which
we
> > might
> > > >> > > deprecate at the drop of a hat.
> > > >> > > The platform-only workflow supports legitimate use-cases
which
> CLI
> > > >> > probably
> > > >> > > will never cover -- things like embedding a cordova web
view
> > inside
> > > >> of a
> > > >> > > larger platform-native project.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The major difference I see with CLI is that it encourages
the
> > "Your
> > > >> > cordova
> > > >> > > web view *IS* your application" mindset. (And if that's
true,
> then
> > > why
> > > >> > > wouldn't you aim for cross-platform development?) The pre-CLI
> > > >> workflow is
> > > >> > > still the way to build all other sorts of applications.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ian
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:30 PM, purplecabbage <
> > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > I like merge-flow and legacy-flow
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Cross Platform -> use Merge Flow
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Single Platform -> use Legacy Flow
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Using "Multi Platform or Cross Platform" is also
fine
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Using "Flow or Mode" is also fine
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013, Brian LeRoux
wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> Ya, to me the difference is that one workflow
embraces the
> > > native
> > > >> > > > platform
> > > >> > > > >> and tooling (plugman and bin/scripts) while
the other
> focuses
> > > on
> > > >> > > > building a
> > > >> > > > >> web project (cli/merges/etc).
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> As a dev, if I'm ONLY worried about one platform
(like a
> > > Cordova
> > > >> > > > >> implementor or many of our community folk)
then bin/scripts
> > > >> > suffices.
> > > >> > > As
> > > >> > > > >> soon as I'm concerned with more than one platform
the CLI
> > > >> workflows
> > > >> > > kick
> > > >> > > > >> in. That was the use case anyhow.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Steven Gill
<
> > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >>> Brian suggested Project Development (CLI
workflow) vs
> > Platform
> > > >> > > > >> Development
> > > >> > > > >>> (bin/scripts)
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steven
Gill <
> > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> We need more suggestions!
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> Anis suggested picking to arbitrary
names that don't
> > reflect
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > >>> workflows
> > > >> > > > >>>> but would be easy to refer to.
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM,
Michal Mocny <
> > > >> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > >> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> I use the IDE with the CLI and
hope to make it better.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> In my mind, the old way is for
making platform
> > > modifications,
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > >>> new
> > > >> > > > >>>>> way threads platforms/ as a build
artifact.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> If you must control the platform
code, you sacrifice
> easy
> > > >> > upgrades
> > > >> > > > and
> > > >> > > > >>>>> ease
> > > >> > > > >>>>> of multi-platform development,
but gain control.
> > > >> > > > >>>>> If you want to use the CLI, you
lose the ability to make
> > > >> > > > modifications
> > > >> > > > >>> to
> > > >> > > > >>>>> directly platform code without
worrying about the
> > > >> implications.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> -Michal
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM,
Steven Gill <
> > > >> > > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> I like that better.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> I know that both methods use
the command line, but the
> > > >> > cordova-cli
> > > >> > > > >> has
> > > >> > > > >>>>> cli
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> in its name! We call the tool
the cordova-cli so it
> might
> > > be
> > > >> > more
> > > >> > > > >>>>> confusing
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> going away from that and calling
it anything else. Not
> > > >> saying we
> > > >> > > > >>>>> shouldn't
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> be open to a name change though
just because we called
> > it X
> > > >> > since
> > > >> > > > >> its
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> inception (or am I saying
that? :P).
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> When we write the docs about
the other workflow
> > > (bin/create,
> > > >> > > > >> plugman),
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> maybe making the IDE an integral
part of it would make
> it
> > > >> make
> > > >> > > more
> > > >> > > > >>>>> sense
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> calling that workflow IDE.
Just a thought.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at
12:09 PM, Jesse <
> > > >> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> IDE or cordova-cli ??
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> @purplecabbage
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> risingj.com
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at
12:02 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > >> > > > >>> stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> I think SinplePlatform
vs MultiPlatform is misleading
> > > >> because
> > > >> > > > >> you
> > > >> > > > >>>>> can
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> use
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> the CLI to do single
platform development.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013
at 11:51 AM, Jesse <
> > > >> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform
vs MultiPlatform makes the most sense
> > to
> > > >> me.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform
= Focus on a single platform, and use
> > > >> plugman
> > > >> > > > >> and
> > > >> > > > >>>>> the
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> platform scripts
directly. Useful when you only have
> > > that
> > > >> > > > >>>>> particular
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> device
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test on, or
only have access to that device's
> > > >> marketplace.
> > > >> > > > >>>>> Also
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> useful
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> for platform developers
who are focused primarily on
> > the
> > > >> > > > >> native
> > > >> > > > >>>>> code.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> ( aka DivideAndConquer
)
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > --
> > > >> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > >> > > > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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