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From Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:02:20 GMT
I think SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is misleading because you can use
the CLI to do single platform development.


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <purplecabbage@gmail.com> wrote:

> SinglePlatform vs MultiPlatform makes the most sense to me.
>
> SinglePlatform = Focus on a single platform, and use plugman and the
> platform scripts directly. Useful when you only have that particular device
> to test on, or only have access to that device's marketplace.  Also useful
> for platform developers who are focused primarily on the native code.
> ( aka DivideAndConquer )
>
> MultiPlatform = Build your app for a bunch of platforms at the same time.
> Great for when you know you are targeting multiple stores/devices.
> ( aka DucksInARow or MagicBullet )
>
> I tend to lean towards the SinglePlatform, so maybe someone else could
> enumerate more Multi benefits.
>
>
> @purplecabbage
> risingj.com
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > John: If you decided to take a stab a blogging about it, please think
> about
> > blogging on the cordova site! We can all review it before publishing it
> > too!
> >
> > Erik: that video was awesome! Let me know when Gorkem does a release and
> I
> > can post it on the cordova twitter feed.
> >
> > Michal: Could just be CLI vs Plugman workflow
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I wonder if we should not work out better names for the two workflows.
> > >  Both are kinda command-line-based so saying "CLI" vs "old" is
> confusing.
> > >  As is saying "the bin/ script flow" confusing.  Not sure if "multi" vs
> > > "single" platform flow is any better, since you can use both flows for
> > one
> > > or more platforms.
> > >
> > > Anyway, if we have more obvious/catchy names, then we can be more clear
> > in
> > > our communications which flow our answers are relevant to.  i.e., "use
> > > plugman to ... (only for ___ flow)".  i.e., "Be carefully when editing
> in
> > > IDE ... (only for ___ flow)".
> > >
> > > -Michal
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Anis KADRI <anis.kadri@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Erik that's great! Where can we download it?
> > > > On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" <agrieve@chromium.org>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Awesome video!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <
> edewit@redhat.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice
> > wizard
> > > in
> > > > > > eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Great Bryan
> > > > > > > Totally agree !!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cordialement.
> > > > > > > -------------------------------
> > > > > > > Maxime LUCE - Somatic
> > > > > > > maxime.luce@somatic.fr
> > > > > > > 06 28 60 72 34
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> > > > > > > Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48
> > > > > > > À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to
our
> > users,
> > > > or
> > > > > > build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The
> > > origins
> > > > of
> > > > > > these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and
> direct
> > > > > > experience.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project
is
> > fine,
> > > > of
> > > > > > course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also
a
> > > > > deliberate
> > > > > > learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies
> both
> > > > > > approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform
> > will
> > > be
> > > > > > canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very
real
> > > > example
> > > > > > of Conway's Law btw. [1]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report
> them,
> > > and
> > > > > > we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a
very
> > > > diverse
> > > > > > community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web
> > designers.
> > > > We
> > > > > > need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate
to
> > > each
> > > > > > other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the
day,
> it
> > > is
> > > > > our
> > > > > > perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Inline image 1]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <
> > > tommy@devgeeks.org
> > > > > > <mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>> wrote:
> > > > > > > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want
to chime
> > in
> > > in
> > > > > > > support of the CLI.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app,
I
> > would
> > > > like
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers
of
> > the
> > > > CLI
> > > > > > > Kool-Aid since its infancy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/*
> > is
> > > > > just a
> > > > > > > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole
thing
> > > > > together
> > > > > > > with Grunt).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins
> as
> > > well
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability
to
> > > white
> > > > > > label
> > > > > > > it with relative ease.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly
> advocate
> > > its
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to
the
> > > > discussion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - tommy / devgeeks
> > > > > > > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > > > > > anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?)
that both
> > > > > > >> approaches should be supported :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <
> > > > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow
also to do
> > > > something
> > > > > > >> like
> > > > > > >>> "cordova platform add ios
> > > --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana
<
> > > > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead
of
> > > .cordova/libs."
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <
> > > > > viras@users.sourceforge.net
> > > > > > <mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
> > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some
time to figure
> out
> > > how
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> CLI
> > > > > > >>>>> actually works - despite also having to
fix one or two bugs
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > WPX
> > > > > > >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well
as the Windows 8
> CLI
> > > > code).
> > > > > > But
> > > > > > >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since
I think once
> you
> > > are
> > > > > used
> > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I
still have those
> old
> > > > > > documents
> > > > > > >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the
IDE projects for
> the
> > > > > > different
> > > > > > >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the
way to go... :)
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Best,
> > > > > > >>>>> Wolfgang
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very
happy to see that
> > > you've
> > > > > > >> figured
> > > > > > >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and
avoid the drawbacks
> of
> > > the
> > > > > new
> > > > > > >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased
productivity
> for
> > > you.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still
too difficult for
> every
> > > > > > developer
> > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > >>>>>> learn what you already have.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> -Michal
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras
<
> > > > > > viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> my view on this discussion:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the
latest version of GOFG
> > > Sports
> > > > > > >> Computer
> > > > > > >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support
for the "merges" directory
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > > >> fantastic
> > > > > > >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus
on the javascript code
> > using
> > > > > e.g.
> > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle
all my platform
> > specific
> > > > code
> > > > > > >> from
> > > > > > >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory
structure - which
> is
> > > > what
> > > > > > >> Cordova
> > > > > > >>>>>>> should be about.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you
to write clean code (not
> > > > implying
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy
code). If you need
> > > something
> > > > > > >> native
> > > > > > >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which
also makes the code
> > > > reusable)
> > > > > -
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > >>>>>>> need
> > > > > > >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects
code - this also
> > makes
> > > > > > >> upgrading
> > > > > > >>>>>>> cordova much easier.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone
version I've simply
> added
> > > > > Android
> > > > > > >> as a
> > > > > > >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done
- no need for fiddling
> > > around
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > >>>>>>> SDK /
> > > > > > >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually
installing it). So CLI is
> > my
> > > > > > favorite
> > > > > > >>>>>>> way
> > > > > > >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far
more powerful than the old
> > > > > approach
> > > > > > >> (in
> > > > > > >>>>>>> my
> > > > > > >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from
fiddling around with
> > > project
> > > > > > >>>>>>> settings,
> > > > > > >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform
release.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom
plugins, 5 official
> > > > plugins
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond
the "Hello World"
> > > > > > application....
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't
possible to work with
> the
> > > > native
> > > > > > >> IDEs
> > > > > > >>>>>>> with their own projects - this
is simply wrong since you
> > can
> > > > > always
> > > > > > >> go
> > > > > > >>>>>>> to
> > > > > > >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open
the platform-projects
> > > using
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > >>>>>>> native
> > > > > > >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this
myself for e.g. plugin
> > > > > development).
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions
should be supported -
> but
> > > > don't
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for
"n00bs" only!
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Best,
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Wolfgang
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe
Bowser:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM,
Michal Mocny <
> > > > > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > > > <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its
important to highlight
> that
> > > both
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> directions
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.
 We've done our best to
> support
> > > bin/
> > > > > > >> scripts
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> post
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements
like "CLI should not be
> used
> > > with
> > > > > > >> IDE", or
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> "CLI
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing
something trivial" are
> being
> > > > thrown
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> around,
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my
opinion, and I don't think its
> > fair
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >> some
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> us
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message
to users.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating
with our users at
> all,
> > > so I
> > > > > > >> don't
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated.
 When users
> > communicate
> > > > > their
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually
something like this
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> (
> > http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
> > > > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://
> > > > www.infil00p.org/config-**<
> > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> )
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> and this
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> (
> > > > http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****
> > > > > <
> > > > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**
> > > > www.infil00p.org/introducing-**
> > > > > <
> > > > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> ).
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and
while its not perfect, I
> strive
> > > to
> > > > > > learn
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> its
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it
better, not condemn it.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not
developed for me, or
> > developers
> > > > like
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile
of output when things fail.
>  I
> > > > > avoided
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> having any part in its development
because I thought it
> > was
> > > > the
> > > > > > >> wrong
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed
that the majority of users
> > > > actually
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should
do my best to work around
> > > this,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > >> with
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting,
such as the blog posts
> > and
> > > > some
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups,
it seems that this is a
> > > feature
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView
use case, I actually have
> > never
> > > > > tried
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> that.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to
make sure it works well
> post-3.0,
> > or
> > > > > does
> > > > > > >> Joe
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> have
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed
addressing this?
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in
the Android repository to
> make
> > > > sure
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> this still works.  However,
I would like to see this
> test
> > > case
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more
appropriate to have
> > > > > CordovaActivity
> > > > > > >> be
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface,
or for both to be
> > > > > > supported.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make
more hybrid applications and
> > > deal
> > > > > with
> > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally
non-complaint with Android
> UI
> > > > > > guidelines
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.
 I'll probably bring this
> up
> > > and
> > > > > > >> present
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> more source code when it's
ready to explain why we need
> > this
> > > > > > feature
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks,
and why it's important to
> > > respect
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform
doesn't respect the
> web.
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>> --
> > > > > > >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > > > > >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by
Cordova
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> --
> > > > > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> --
> > > > > > >>>> Carlos Santana
> > > > > > >>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> --
> > > > > > >>> Carlos Santana
> > > > > > >>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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