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From Steven Gill <stevengil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:28:52 GMT
John: If you decided to take a stab a blogging about it, please think about
blogging on the cordova site! We can all review it before publishing it too!

Erik: that video was awesome! Let me know when Gorkem does a release and I
can post it on the cordova twitter feed.

Michal: Could just be CLI vs Plugman workflow


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org> wrote:

> I wonder if we should not work out better names for the two workflows.
>  Both are kinda command-line-based so saying "CLI" vs "old" is confusing.
>  As is saying "the bin/ script flow" confusing.  Not sure if "multi" vs
> "single" platform flow is any better, since you can use both flows for one
> or more platforms.
>
> Anyway, if we have more obvious/catchy names, then we can be more clear in
> our communications which flow our answers are relevant to.  i.e., "use
> plugman to ... (only for ___ flow)".  i.e., "Be carefully when editing in
> IDE ... (only for ___ flow)".
>
> -Michal
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Anis KADRI <anis.kadri@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Erik that's great! Where can we download it?
> > On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" <agrieve@chromium.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Awesome video!!
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <edewit@redhat.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice wizard
> in
> > > > eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video
> > > >
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok
> > > >
> > > > On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Great Bryan
> > > > > Totally agree !!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Cordialement.
> > > > > -------------------------------
> > > > > Maxime LUCE - Somatic
> > > > > maxime.luce@somatic.fr
> > > > > 06 28 60 72 34
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> > > > > Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48
> > > > > À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users,
> > or
> > > > build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The
> origins
> > of
> > > > these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct
> > > > experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine,
> > of
> > > > course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a
> > > deliberate
> > > > learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both
> > > > approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform will
> be
> > > > canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real
> > example
> > > > of Conway's Law btw. [1]
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them,
> and
> > > > we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very
> > diverse
> > > > community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web designers.
> > We
> > > > need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to
> each
> > > > other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it
> is
> > > our
> > > > perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Inline image 1]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <
> tommy@devgeeks.org
> > > > <mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>> wrote:
> > > > > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in
> in
> > > > > support of the CLI.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would
> > like
> > > > to
> > > > > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the
> > CLI
> > > > > Kool-Aid since its infancy.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is
> > > just a
> > > > > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing
> > > together
> > > > > with Grunt).
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as
> well
> > > > and a
> > > > > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to
> white
> > > > label
> > > > > it with relative ease.
> > > > >
> > > > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate
> its
> > > use
> > > > > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the
> > discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > - tommy / devgeeks
> > > > > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > > anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both
> > > > >> approaches should be supported :-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <
> > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to
do
> > something
> > > > >> like
> > > > >>> "cordova platform add ios
> --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead of
> .cordova/libs."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <
> > > viras@users.sourceforge.net
> > > > <mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to
figure out
> how
> > > the
> > > > >> CLI
> > > > >>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or
two bugs for
> > the
> > > > WPX
> > > > >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows
8 CLI
> > code).
> > > > But
> > > > >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think
once you
> are
> > > used
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have
those old
> > > > documents
> > > > >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects
for the
> > > > different
> > > > >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to
go... :)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Best,
> > > > >>>>> Wolfgang
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to
see that
> you've
> > > > >> figured
> > > > >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the
drawbacks of
> the
> > > new
> > > > >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity
for
> you.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult
for every
> > > > developer
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>>>>> learn what you already have.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> -Michal
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras <
> > > > viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> my view on this discussion:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version
of GOFG
> Sports
> > > > >> Computer
> > > > >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges"
directory is
> a
> > > > >> fantastic
> > > > >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript
code using
> > > e.g.
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my
platform specific
> > code
> > > > >> from
> > > > >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure
- which is
> > what
> > > > >> Cordova
> > > > >>>>>>> should be about.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean
code (not
> > implying
> > > > that
> > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code).
If you need
> something
> > > > >> native
> > > > >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes
the code
> > reusable)
> > > -
> > > > no
> > > > >>>>>>> need
> > > > >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code
- this also makes
> > > > >> upgrading
> > > > >>>>>>> cordova much easier.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version
I've simply added
> > > Android
> > > > >> as a
> > > > >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need
for fiddling
> around
> > > > with
> > > > >>>>>>> SDK /
> > > > >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing
it). So CLI is my
> > > > favorite
> > > > >>>>>>> way
> > > > >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful
than the old
> > > approach
> > > > >> (in
> > > > >>>>>>> my
> > > > >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling
around with
> project
> > > > >>>>>>> settings,
> > > > >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins,
5 official
> > plugins
> > > > and
> > > > >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello
World"
> > > > application....
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible
to work with the
> > native
> > > > >> IDEs
> > > > >>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply
wrong since you can
> > > always
> > > > >> go
> > > > >>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects
> using
> > > > their
> > > > >>>>>>> native
> > > > >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for
e.g. plugin
> > > development).
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be
supported - but
> > don't
> > > > make
> > > > >>>>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only!
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Best,
> > > > >>>>>>> Wolfgang
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny
<
> > > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important
to highlight that
> both
> > > > >>>>>>>>> directions
> > > > >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.  We've done
our best to support
> bin/
> > > > >> scripts
> > > > >>>>>>>>> post
> > > > >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like
"CLI should not be used
> with
> > > > >> IDE", or
> > > > >>>>>>>>> "CLI
> > > > >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something
trivial" are being
> > thrown
> > > > >>>>>>>>> around,
> > > > >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion,
and I don't think its fair
> > > that
> > > > >> some
> > > > >>>>>>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>>>> us
> > > > >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating
with our users at all,
> so I
> > > > >> don't
> > > > >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated. 
When users communicate
> > > their
> > > > >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something
like this
> > > > >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
> > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
> > > > >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://
> > www.infil00p.org/config-**<
> > > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
> > > > >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> )
> > > > >>>>>>>> and this
> > > > >>>>>>>> (
> > http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****
> > > <
> > > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
> > > > >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**
> > www.infil00p.org/introducing-**
> > > <
> > > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
> > > > >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> ).
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its
not perfect, I strive
> to
> > > > learn
> > > > >>>>>>>> its
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not
condemn it.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed
for me, or developers
> > like
> > > > me
> > > > >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output
when things fail.  I
> > > avoided
> > > > >>>>>>>> having any part in its development because
I thought it was
> > the
> > > > >> wrong
> > > > >>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed that the
majority of users
> > actually
> > > > >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best
to work around
> this,
> > > but
> > > > >> with
> > > > >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such
as the blog posts and
> > some
> > > > >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems
that this is a
> feature
> > > > very
> > > > >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case,
I actually have never
> > > tried
> > > > >>>>>>>> that.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure
it works well post-3.0, or
> > > does
> > > > >> Joe
> > > > >>>>>>>>> have
> > > > >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing
this?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android
repository to make
> > sure
> > > > that
> > > > >>>>>>>> this still works.  However, I would like
to see this test
> case
> > > > >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate
to have
> > > CordovaActivity
> > > > >> be
> > > > >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface,
or for both to be
> > > > supported.
> > > > >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid
applications and
> deal
> > > with
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint
with Android UI
> > > > guidelines
> > > > >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.  I'll probably
bring this up
> and
> > > > >> present
> > > > >>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain
why we need this
> > > > feature
> > > > >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why
it's important to
> respect
> > > the
> > > > >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't
respect the web.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > > >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>> --
> > > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Carlos Santana
> > > > >>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Carlos Santana
> > > > >>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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