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From Michal Mocny <mmo...@chromium.org>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:21:38 GMT
I wonder if we should not work out better names for the two workflows.
 Both are kinda command-line-based so saying "CLI" vs "old" is confusing.
 As is saying "the bin/ script flow" confusing.  Not sure if "multi" vs
"single" platform flow is any better, since you can use both flows for one
or more platforms.

Anyway, if we have more obvious/catchy names, then we can be more clear in
our communications which flow our answers are relevant to.  i.e., "use
plugman to ... (only for ___ flow)".  i.e., "Be carefully when editing in
IDE ... (only for ___ flow)".

-Michal


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Anis KADRI <anis.kadri@gmail.com> wrote:

> Erik that's great! Where can we download it?
> On Oct 18, 2013 8:01 AM, "Andrew Grieve" <agrieve@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> > Awesome video!!
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <edewit@redhat.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice wizard in
> > > eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok
> > >
> > > On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Great Bryan
> > > > Totally agree !!!
> > > >
> > > > Cordialement.
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > > Maxime LUCE - Somatic
> > > > maxime.luce@somatic.fr
> > > > 06 28 60 72 34
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> > > > Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48
> > > > À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
> > > >
> > > > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users,
> or
> > > build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The origins
> of
> > > these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct
> > > experience.
> > > >
> > > > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine,
> of
> > > course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a
> > deliberate
> > > learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both
> > > approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform will be
> > > canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real
> example
> > > of Conway's Law btw. [1]
> > > >
> > > > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, and
> > > we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very
> diverse
> > > community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web designers.
> We
> > > need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to each
> > > other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it is
> > our
> > > perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up.
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Inline image 1]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <tommy@devgeeks.org
> > > <mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>> wrote:
> > > > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in in
> > > > support of the CLI.
> > > >
> > > > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would
> like
> > > to
> > > > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the
> CLI
> > > > Kool-Aid since its infancy.
> > > >
> > > > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is
> > just a
> > > > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing
> > together
> > > > with Grunt).
> > > >
> > > > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as well
> > > and a
> > > > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to white
> > > label
> > > > it with relative ease.
> > > >
> > > > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate its
> > use
> > > > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
> > > >
> > > > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the
> discussion.
> > > >
> > > > - tommy / devgeeks
> > > > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both
> > > >> approaches should be supported :-)
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <
> > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do
> something
> > > >> like
> > > >>> "cordova platform add ios --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead of .cordova/libs."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <
> > viras@users.sourceforge.net
> > > <mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure
out how
> > the
> > > >> CLI
> > > >>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two
bugs for
> the
> > > WPX
> > > >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows
8 CLI
> code).
> > > But
> > > >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once
you are
> > used
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those
old
> > > documents
> > > >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for
the
> > > different
> > > >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go...
:)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>> Wolfgang
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that
you've
> > > >> figured
> > > >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks
of the
> > new
> > > >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity
for you.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult
for every
> > > developer
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>>> learn what you already have.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> -Michal
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras <
> > > viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> my view on this discussion:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version
of GOFG Sports
> > > >> Computer
> > > >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges"
directory is a
> > > >> fantastic
> > > >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript
code using
> > e.g.
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform
specific
> code
> > > >> from
> > > >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure
- which is
> what
> > > >> Cordova
> > > >>>>>>> should be about.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean
code (not
> implying
> > > that
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you
need something
> > > >> native
> > > >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes
the code
> reusable)
> > -
> > > no
> > > >>>>>>> need
> > > >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this
also makes
> > > >> upgrading
> > > >>>>>>> cordova much easier.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've
simply added
> > Android
> > > >> as a
> > > >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for
fiddling around
> > > with
> > > >>>>>>> SDK /
> > > >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it).
So CLI is my
> > > favorite
> > > >>>>>>> way
> > > >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than
the old
> > approach
> > > >> (in
> > > >>>>>>> my
> > > >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around
with project
> > > >>>>>>> settings,
> > > >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins,
5 official
> plugins
> > > and
> > > >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello
World"
> > > application....
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work
with the
> native
> > > >> IDEs
> > > >>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong
since you can
> > always
> > > >> go
> > > >>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects
using
> > > their
> > > >>>>>>> native
> > > >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g.
plugin
> > development).
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported
- but
> don't
> > > make
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only!
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>>>> Wolfgang
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny
<
> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to
highlight that both
> > > >>>>>>>>> directions
> > > >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.  We've done our
best to support bin/
> > > >> scripts
> > > >>>>>>>>> post
> > > >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI
should not be used with
> > > >> IDE", or
> > > >>>>>>>>> "CLI
> > > >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something
trivial" are being
> thrown
> > > >>>>>>>>> around,
> > > >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I
don't think its fair
> > that
> > > >> some
> > > >>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>> us
> > > >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with
our users at all, so I
> > > >> don't
> > > >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated.  When
users communicate
> > their
> > > >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like
this
> > > >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
> > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
> > > >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://
> www.infil00p.org/config-**<
> > > http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
> > > >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> )
> > > >>>>>>>> and this
> > > >>>>>>>> (
> http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****
> > <
> > > >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
> > > >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**
> www.infil00p.org/introducing-**
> > <
> > > http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
> > > >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> ).
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect,
I strive to
> > > learn
> > > >>>>>>>> its
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn
it.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for
me, or developers
> like
> > > me
> > > >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when
things fail.  I
> > avoided
> > > >>>>>>>> having any part in its development because
I thought it was
> the
> > > >> wrong
> > > >>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed that the majority
of users
> actually
> > > >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to
work around this,
> > but
> > > >> with
> > > >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the
blog posts and
> some
> > > >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that
this is a feature
> > > very
> > > >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually
have never
> > tried
> > > >>>>>>>> that.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works
well post-3.0, or
> > does
> > > >> Joe
> > > >>>>>>>>> have
> > > >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this?
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository
to make
> sure
> > > that
> > > >>>>>>>> this still works.  However, I would like to
see this test case
> > > >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate
to have
> > CordovaActivity
> > > >> be
> > > >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or
for both to be
> > > supported.
> > > >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications
and deal
> > with
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint
with Android UI
> > > guidelines
> > > >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.  I'll probably
bring this up and
> > > >> present
> > > >>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain
why we need this
> > > feature
> > > >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's
important to respect
> > the
> > > >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect
the web.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> > > >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Carlos Santana
> > > >>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Carlos Santana
> > > >>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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