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From Andrew Grieve <agri...@chromium.org>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 15:00:33 GMT
Awesome video!!


On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Erik Jan de Wit <edewit@redhat.com> wrote:

> On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice wizard in
> eclipse that mimics the CLI have a look at this video
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok
>
> On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr> wrote:
>
> > Great Bryan
> > Totally agree !!!
> >
> > Cordialement.
> > -------------------------------
> > Maxime LUCE - Somatic
> > maxime.luce@somatic.fr
> > 06 28 60 72 34
> > ________________________________
> > De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> > Envoyé : 18/10/2013 01:48
> > À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
> >
> > I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users, or
> build apps in anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The origins of
> these initiatives are based on both community feedback, and direct
> experience.
> >
> > Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine, of
> course, since the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a deliberate
> learning from MANY attempts at an architecture that satisfies both
> approaches. It separates the concerns and respects the platform will be
> canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real example
> of Conway's Law btw. [1]
> >
> > Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, and
> we'll continue to improve. This is a very large group with a very diverse
> community that spans regular old hackers to the humble web designers. We
> need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate to each
> other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it is our
> perpetual job to make it a little less fucked up.
> >
> > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
> >
> >
> > [Inline image 1]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <tommy@devgeeks.org
> <mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>> wrote:
> > Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in in
> > support of the CLI.
> >
> > As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would like
> to
> > let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the CLI
> > Kool-Aid since its infancy.
> >
> > We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is just a
> > build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing together
> > with Grunt).
> >
> > We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as well
> and a
> > few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to white
> label
> > it with relative ease.
> >
> > I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate its use
> > when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
> >
> > Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the discussion.
> >
> > - tommy / devgeeks
> > On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com<mailto:
> anis.kadri@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both
> >> approaches should be supported :-)
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com
> <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do something
> >> like
> >>> "cordova platform add ios --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com
> <mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead of .cordova/libs."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <viras@users.sourceforge.net
> <mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure out how
the
> >> CLI
> >>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two bugs for
the
> WPX
> >>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows 8 CLI code).
> But
> >>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once you are
used
> >> to
> >>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those old
> documents
> >>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for the
> different
> >>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go... :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Wolfgang
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that you've
> >> figured
> >>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks of
the new
> >>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity for
you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult for every
> developer
> >> to
> >>>>>> learn what you already have.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Michal
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras <
> viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> my view on this discussion:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version of GOFG
Sports
> >> Computer
> >>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges" directory
is a
> >> fantastic
> >>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript code
using e.g.
> >> the
> >>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform specific
code
> >> from
> >>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure - which
is what
> >> Cordova
> >>>>>>> should be about.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean code (not
implying
> that
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you need something
> >> native
> >>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes the code reusable)
-
> no
> >>>>>>> need
> >>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this also makes
> >> upgrading
> >>>>>>> cordova much easier.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've simply added
Android
> >> as a
> >>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for fiddling
around
> with
> >>>>>>> SDK /
> >>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it). So CLI is
my
> favorite
> >>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than the old
approach
> >> (in
> >>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around with
project
> >>>>>>> settings,
> >>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins, 5 official
plugins
> and
> >>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello World"
> application....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work with the
native
> >> IDEs
> >>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong since you
can always
> >> go
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects
using
> their
> >>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g. plugin development).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported - but
don't
> make
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>> Wolfgang
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org
> <mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to highlight
that both
> >>>>>>>>> directions
> >>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.  We've done our best to
support bin/
> >> scripts
> >>>>>>>>> post
> >>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI should not
be used with
> >> IDE", or
> >>>>>>>>> "CLI
> >>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something trivial" are
being thrown
> >>>>>>>>> around,
> >>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I don't think
its fair that
> >> some
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> us
> >>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with our users
at all, so I
> >> don't
> >>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated.  When users communicate
their
> >>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like this
> >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
> >> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
> >>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://www.infil00p.org/config-**<
> http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
> >>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
> >>
> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> )
> >>>>>>>> and this
> >>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****<
> >> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
> >>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**www.infil00p.org/introducing-**<
> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
> >>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
> >>
> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect, I
strive to
> learn
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for me, or developers
like
> me
> >>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when things fail.
 I avoided
> >>>>>>>> having any part in its development because I thought
it was the
> >> wrong
> >>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed that the majority of users
actually
> >>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to work around
this, but
> >> with
> >>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the blog posts
and some
> >>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that this is
a feature
> very
> >>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually have
never tried
> >>>>>>>> that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works well post-3.0,
or does
> >> Joe
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository to
make sure
> that
> >>>>>>>> this still works.  However, I would like to see this
test case
> >>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate to have CordovaActivity
> >> be
> >>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or for both to
be
> supported.
> >>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications
and deal with
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint with Android
UI
> guidelines
> >>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.  I'll probably bring this
up and
> >> present
> >>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain why we need
this
> feature
> >>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's important
to respect the
> >>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect the
web.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> >>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
> >>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Carlos Santana
> >>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
> >>
> >
>
>

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