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From Erik Jan de Wit <ede...@redhat.com>
Subject Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Date Fri, 18 Oct 2013 07:43:26 GMT
On the topic of IDE support my collage Gorkem has made a nice wizard in eclipse that mimics
the CLI have a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUyUUtmTYok

On 18 Oct,2013, at 4:29 , Maxime LUCE <Maxime@somatic.fr> wrote:

> Great Bryan
> Totally agree !!!
> 
> Cordialement.
> -------------------------------
> Maxime LUCE - Somatic
> maxime.luce@somatic.fr
> 06 28 60 72 34
> ________________________________
> De : Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> Envoyé : ‎18/‎10/‎2013 01:48
> À : dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> Objet : Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
> 
> I don't really appreciate comments that we don't talk to our users, or build apps in
anger. Neither of those assertions are true. The origins of these initiatives are based on
both community feedback, and direct experience.
> 
> Keeping your focus on just pure platform side of a project is fine, of course, since
the CLI delegates to the platform. This was also a deliberate learning from MANY attempts
at an architecture that satisfies both approaches. It separates the concerns and respects
the platform will be canonical for the common workflows supported. This is a very real example
of Conway's Law btw. [1]
> 
> Anyhow. Deep breath! Software has bugs, people will report them, and we'll continue to
improve. This is a very large group with a very diverse community that spans regular old hackers
to the humble web designers. We need to respect that, and maybe be a little more compassionate
to each other too. All software is fucked up, and at the end of the day, it is our perpetual
job to make it a little less fucked up.
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law
> 
> 
> [Inline image 1]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Tommy Williams <tommy@devgeeks.org<mailto:tommy@devgeeks.org>>
wrote:
> Late to the party due to timezone fun, but I just want to chime in in
> support of the CLI.
> 
> As a dev working on an actual nontrivial "real world" app, I would like to
> let it be known that we (SpiderOak) have been heavy drinkers of the CLI
> Kool-Aid since its infancy.
> 
> We have even managed to get to the point where ./platforms/**/* is just a
> build artefact (mostly by using hooks and tying the whole thing together
> with Grunt).
> 
> We have a fast and fairly complex app (both many core plugins as well and a
> few custom/third party ones), that even includes the ability to white label
> it with relative ease.
> 
> I feel pretty strongly in favour of the CLI and strongly advocate its use
> when asked in the #phonegap IRC channel.
> 
> Just my opinion, but thought it was important to add to the discussion.
> 
> - tommy / devgeeks
> On 18 Oct 2013 04:44, "Anis KADRI" <anis.kadri@gmail.com<mailto:anis.kadri@gmail.com>>
wrote:
> 
>> Sweet. So I think we all agree (expect Joe perhaps?) that both
>> approaches should be supported :-)
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>> I meant in addition of ".cordova/lib" also allow also to do something
>> like
>>> "cordova platform add ios --path="./cordova_components/cordova-ios"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ++1  "to install from a given directory instead of .cordova/libs."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Viras <viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> This might be true - it took me quite some time to figure out how the
>> CLI
>>>>> actually works - despite also having to fix one or two bugs for the WPX
>>>>> implementation of the CLI code (as well as the Windows 8 CLI code). But
>>>>> still I would hate to see the CLI go, since I think once you are used
>> to
>>>>> it, it saves you quite a lot of time (I still have those old documents
>>>>> which guide me through the setup of the IDE projects for the different
>>>>> platforms - which is now mostly obsolete).
>>>>> 
>>>>> So I guess supporting both methods is the way to go... :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>> 
>>>>> Am 2013-10-17 16:13, schrieb Michal Mocny:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks so much for chiming in, I'm very happy to see that you've
>> figured
>>>>>> out how to leverage the benefits and avoid the drawbacks of the new
>>>>>> workflow, and that it has led to increased productivity for you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do think that perhaps it is still too difficult for every developer
>> to
>>>>>> learn what you already have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Michal
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Viras <viras@users.sourceforge.net<mailto:viras@users.sourceforge.net>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> my view on this discussion:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've used the CLI to release the latest version of GOFG Sports
>> Computer
>>>>>>> for Windows Phone. The support for the "merges" directory is
a
>> fantastic
>>>>>>> feature which allows me to focus on the javascript code using
e.g.
>> the
>>>>>>> NetBeans IDE - I can finally handle all my platform specific
code
>> from
>>>>>>> JavaScript in one consistent directory structure - which is what
>> Cordova
>>>>>>> should be about.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In addition the CLI forces you to write clean code (not implying
that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> other method forces to write messy code). If you need something
>> native
>>>>>>> write a clean plugin for it (which also makes the code reusable)
- no
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to mess around in the native projects code - this also makes
>> upgrading
>>>>>>> cordova much easier.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Once I've done the Windows Phone version I've simply added Android
>> as a
>>>>>>> platform, build it and I was done - no need for fiddling around
with
>>>>>>> SDK /
>>>>>>> IDE setup etc (besides actually installing it). So CLI is my
favorite
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> to develop now - and it is far more powerful than the old approach
>> (in
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> opinion) - since it saves you from fiddling around with project
>>>>>>> settings,
>>>>>>> etc. when you do a multi-platform release.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Oh yes - and GOFG SC uses two custom plugins, 5 official plugins
and
>>>>>>> cordova 3.0 - so it is a bit beyond the "Hello World" application....
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And I do not agree that it isn't possible to work with the native
>> IDEs
>>>>>>> with their own projects - this is simply wrong since you can
always
>> go
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the "platforms" directory and open the platform-projects using
their
>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>> IDE from there (I've done this myself for e.g. plugin development).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Still I agree that both versions should be supported - but don't
make
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> assumption that the CLI is for "n00bs" only!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am 2013-10-16 23:11, schrieb Joe Bowser:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org<mailto:mmocny@chromium.org>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anis: Totally agrees, but its important to highlight that
both
>>>>>>>>> directions
>>>>>>>>> for that arguments hold.  We've done our best to support
bin/
>> scripts
>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>>> 3.0, yet blanket statements like "CLI should not be used
with
>> IDE", or
>>>>>>>>> "CLI
>>>>>>>>> sucks unless you just doing something trivial" are being
thrown
>>>>>>>>> around,
>>>>>>>>> which are harmful in my opinion, and I don't think its
fair that
>> some
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>> are promoting that message to users.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't think we're communicating with our users at all,
so I
>> don't
>>>>>>>> see how this could be communicated.  When users communicate
their
>>>>>>>> frustrations, it's usually something like this
>>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****config-xml-changes-for-ios-**<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/**config-xml-changes-for-ios-**>
>>>>>>>> and-android/#comment-10731<htt**p://www.infil00p.org/config-**<http://www.infil00p.org/config-**>
>>>>>>>> xml-changes-for-ios-and-**android/#comment-10731<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/config-xml-changes-for-ios-and-android/#comment-10731
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>> and this
>>>>>>>> (http://www.infil00p.org/****introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-****<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/**introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-**>
>>>>>>>> android/#comment-10694<http://**www.infil00p.org/introducing-**<http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-**>
>>>>>>>> cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#**comment-10694<
>> http://www.infil00p.org/introducing-cordova-3-0-0-for-android/#comment-10694
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> CLI works well for me, and while its not perfect, I strive
to learn
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> limitations and make it better, not condemn it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I avoid it because it's not developed for me, or developers
like me
>>>>>>>> who like to see a big pile of output when things fail.  I
avoided
>>>>>>>> having any part in its development because I thought it was
the
>> wrong
>>>>>>>> way to do things.  I assumed that the majority of users actually
>>>>>>>> wanted this and that I should do my best to work around this,
but
>> with
>>>>>>>> the backlash that we're getting, such as the blog posts and
some
>>>>>>>> comments on the Google Groups, it seems that this is a feature
very
>>>>>>>> few people actually wanted.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As far as the CordovaWebView use case, I actually have never
tried
>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Has anyone bothered to make sure it works well post-3.0,
or does
>> Joe
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> a point that we missed addressing this?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We have JUnit unit tests in the Android repository to make
sure that
>>>>>>>> this still works.  However, I would like to see this test
case
>>>>>>>> revisited since it may be more appropriate to have CordovaActivity
>> be
>>>>>>>> inherited instead of CordovaInterface, or for both to be
supported.
>>>>>>>> This is so that we can make more hybrid applications and
deal with
>> the
>>>>>>>> fact that we're so brutally non-complaint with Android UI
guidelines
>>>>>>>> instead of just ignoring it.  I'll probably bring this up
and
>> present
>>>>>>>> more source code when it's ready to explain why we need this
feature
>>>>>>>> in the next couple of weeks, and why it's important to respect
the
>>>>>>>> platform, even when the platform doesn't respect the web.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
>>>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> GOFG - Get On Fat Guy
>>>>> http://www.gofg.at/ - powered by Cordova
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Carlos Santana
>>> <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>>
>> 
> 


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