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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: plugman / cli verbose by default?
Date Wed, 04 Sep 2013 21:03:42 GMT
Composability being the big reasoning. Maybe that is a false consideration
for our end users. I know I hate chatty tools (and I hate telling them to
be quiet) and that could just be a preference from java scars.

Some very light reading attached from 'Classic Shell Scripting' regarding
UNIX tools philosophy.


























On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org> wrote:

> cd and rm don't make network requests. There's plenty of precedent for
> outputting by default. zip, wget, rsync, apt-get, brew.
>
> You can always use --quiet if you pipe our command and have it not output.
> Am I missing something about your use-case?
>
> We have a practical problem right now in that we get a lot of bad bug
> reports where we need to tell users to re-run with --verbose. Almost every
> day in IRC, someone gets told to re-run with --verbose.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > Well, those aren't UNIX tools. Those are userland tools. (So are we, I
> > know.)
> >
> > Imagine if `cd` output something every time you moved. Or rm was always
> > noisy. Super annoying. Anyhow, the book Classic Shell Scripting explains
> > this better than I. Recommended reading.
> >
> > I'd rather our tools followed UNIX philosophy here and where quiet by
> > defaul and noisy if asked. For the record, I've talked to Issac about
> just
> > this issue in node b/c it makes composing scripts more difficult when you
> > have to pipe garbage output around and a tacit plan for npm was to make
> it
> > quiet by default someday when it gets stable. (Who knows if that is still
> > the case.)
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think that's really true for other similar tools.
> > > E.g. "npm install" reports progress by default
> > > E.g. "git clone" shows progress by default.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The convention for UNIX tools is to be quiet by default and fail
> > > noisily. A
> > > > well writ script should exit quietly so you can chain commands. (Or
> > pipe,
> > > > etc.)
> > > >
> > > > I'd prefer we added a --verbose flag.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > braden@chromium.org
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'd rather we call it -q and --quiet though; that's a pretty common
> > > > > convention for Unix tools.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > > braden@chromium.org
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Andrew Grieve <
> > agrieve@chromium.org
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I think this was discussed before but I can't find the thread.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Is anyone not in favour of making the tools verbose by default
> and
> > > > > having
> > > > > >> a
> > > > > >> --silent flag instead?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Makes it much easier to get good debug reports and lets
users
> know
> > > > when
> > > > > >> slow things are taking place.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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