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From Andrew Grieve <agri...@chromium.org>
Subject Re: plugman / cli verbose by default?
Date Thu, 05 Sep 2013 01:08:51 GMT
I don't think your attachment worked.


On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:

> Composability being the big reasoning. Maybe that is a false consideration
> for our end users. I know I hate chatty tools (and I hate telling them to
> be quiet) and that could just be a preference from java scars.
>
> Some very light reading attached from 'Classic Shell Scripting' regarding
> UNIX tools philosophy.
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> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org>wrote:
>
>> cd and rm don't make network requests. There's plenty of precedent for
>> outputting by default. zip, wget, rsync, apt-get, brew.
>>
>> You can always use --quiet if you pipe our command and have it not output.
>> Am I missing something about your use-case?
>>
>> We have a practical problem right now in that we get a lot of bad bug
>> reports where we need to tell users to re-run with --verbose. Almost every
>> day in IRC, someone gets told to re-run with --verbose.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>> > Well, those aren't UNIX tools. Those are userland tools. (So are we, I
>> > know.)
>> >
>> > Imagine if `cd` output something every time you moved. Or rm was always
>> > noisy. Super annoying. Anyhow, the book Classic Shell Scripting explains
>> > this better than I. Recommended reading.
>> >
>> > I'd rather our tools followed UNIX philosophy here and where quiet by
>> > defaul and noisy if asked. For the record, I've talked to Issac about
>> just
>> > this issue in node b/c it makes composing scripts more difficult when
>> you
>> > have to pipe garbage output around and a tacit plan for npm was to make
>> it
>> > quiet by default someday when it gets stable. (Who knows if that is
>> still
>> > the case.)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Andrew Grieve <agrieve@chromium.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don't think that's really true for other similar tools.
>> > > E.g. "npm install" reports progress by default
>> > > E.g. "git clone" shows progress by default.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The convention for UNIX tools is to be quiet by default and fail
>> > > noisily. A
>> > > > well writ script should exit quietly so you can chain commands. (Or
>> > pipe,
>> > > > etc.)
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd prefer we added a --verbose flag.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson <
>> > braden@chromium.org
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I'd rather we call it -q and --quiet though; that's a pretty
>> common
>> > > > > convention for Unix tools.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson <
>> > > braden@chromium.org
>> > > > > >wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > +1
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Andrew Grieve <
>> > agrieve@chromium.org
>> > > > > >wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >> I think this was discussed before but I can't find the
thread.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Is anyone not in favour of making the tools verbose
by default
>> and
>> > > > > having
>> > > > > >> a
>> > > > > >> --silent flag instead?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Makes it much easier to get good debug reports and lets
users
>> know
>> > > > when
>> > > > > >> slow things are taking place.
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>

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