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From Javi López lopez <lopezlopezja...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: on "meritocracy"
Date Thu, 28 Mar 2019 15:25:54 GMT
El jue., 28 mar. 2019 16:18, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> escribió:

>
>
> > On Mar 28, 2019, at 10:20 AM, Naomi Slater <nomi@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 14:35, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So what are you proposing? What actionable corrections can we make
> >> that don't turn the concept of "it doesn't matter who you are, it is
> what
> >> you
> >> do that counts" on its ear?
> >>
> >
> > this thread, if you go back to the start of it, was my attempt to start
> > that conversation. I have repeatedly given suggestions (both on this
> > thread, and on other threads) for things we could do
> >
>
> I see them, but we have to admit that they are spread out over various
> threads and emails. I hate to ask, but could you consolidate    them all
> into a single doc/email?
>
> >
> >> If we are actively (or passively) discouraging diversity, then it is
> >> a problem, of course. Are we?
> >>
> >
> > yes. of course we are. ~5% of our committer base are women. 1 single
> > person, that we know of, is Black. compare these to the figures for the
> > industry as a whole and there is literally no other conclusion you can
> come
> > to
>
> I disagree that such lack of diversity can be attributed to us
> discouraging it.
>
> >
> > can you explain to me where that other 15% of women are? why do we not
> > count them amongst our committers?
> >
>
> I don't know... maybe they aren't driven or attracted to contributing to
> open source projects. Maybe the kinds of projects within the ASF
> are not the kinds that attract them
>
> All this assumes that the diversity at Apache should match the "tech
> industry in North America". But why? The jobs in the tech industry
> are wide and varied... are the roles here just as wide and varied?
> Plus, you are talking about jobs vs. "what we do" and they are
> different things. I would submit that there are some fundamental
> differences between contributing to open source and working in
> the tech industry... and these differences may be significant.
> Maybe one reason is that men find it important to constantly
> prove themselves and contributing to open source is a good
> way to do that; women are more secure and don't need such
> frivolity? (I am NOT saying that this is the case, BTW. My
> point is that there might be reasons NOT due to discouragement)
>
> >
> > again. I have made a number of suggestions for starting points in this
> very
> > thread. and have not gone into more detail, because frankly I am
> exhausted
> > trying to get people to even acknowledge *we have a problem* -- something
> > that is exemplified by your not-so-subtle hand-wringing about "teh social
> > justice warriors" in your last email
>
> Your last sentence proved my point... :(
> >
> > (if you're looking for reasons women might not want to contribute to
> > Apache, perhaps this serves as one example...)
> >
>
> As does this unfortunately.
>
> > I want everyone and anyone who wishes to contribute to Apache to
> >> be able to do so, be warmly welcomed, and be acknowledged and rewarded
> >> for their actions and contributions. I think we are all in agreement
> >> here.
> >>
> >
> > then why do you dismiss criticism of the systems we've put in place to
> > supposedly work towards those goals? criticism that is sorely needed
> >
>
> Again, my point is that the systems are not the issue, but rather the
> implementation of them. If they are broken, we need to fix them. I
> don't dismiss the criticism. I want to understand the criticism.
>
> I don't expect you, or anyone, to take my claims at face value.
> But nor do I take anyone's claims at face value either...
>
> We agree with:
>    Is the ASF as diverse as the population? No.
>    ... as the tech industry in NA? No.
>    Would it be good to be more diverse? Yes.
>
> We seem to disagree with the root causes behind #1 and #2
> and maybe about what "success" would look like for #3.
> But these are not unsurmountable disagreements. I am sure
> we could and can find common ground. Certainly more information
> and data would be very useful!
>
>
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>

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