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From Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Subject Re: The Apache Way and good developers don’t like to communicate
Date Fri, 02 Nov 2018 15:23:00 GMT
+1 on everything Chris says here.

If anyone on the PMC is uncomfortable with making someone a committer
because of their uncommunicativeness, I'd be inclined to give it a little
more time.  A "no" now, doesn't mean a "no" forever.  Maybe ask that person
a few questions about their PR's on the list and see if they can be
encouraged to engage?  Maybe let the PMC member who's advocating for a
particular contributor be the one to take point on that effort?

Greets,
Myrle


On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 1:43 PM Christofer Dutz <christofer.dutz@c-ware.de>
wrote:

> Hi Dimitriy,
>
> well I guess I simply forgot about the option the PMC != Committers ;-)
>
> So I agree, in some cases I could probably support someone not able to
> communicate because of such reasons a committer, but definitely not to
> become a PMC.
> But if it's just laziness or unwillingness (for whatever reasons) I would
> not support them even becoming a committer, as I think these contributions
> would just be
> uncommented code-drops, which I don't think have a positive impact on the
> community (See other thread here)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Am 02.11.18, 13:19 schrieb "Dmitriy Pavlov" <dpavlov.spb@gmail.com>:
>
>     Dear ASF Fellows,
>
>     I strongly appreciate all your replies. I believe there is no just one
>     correct answer. Which is why I need opinions of folks from other
> projects.
>
>     Myrle, Apache Ignite has 26 PMC members and 38 committers, so PMCs is a
>     subset of committers set.
>
>     About collaboration: I guess these contributors were communicating with
>     someone of community within a company they work for, in person/or,
>     probably, Skype. So maybe the code was good. And they became effective
> code
>     contributors without valuable communication on lists and without
>     contributing to the community.
>
>     Chris, About the subject: it is translated version of the argument I
> hear
>     about contributors, who are not often present on dev/user list.
>
>     So if a person does not like to communicate, let's say, afraid of
>     society/publicity, can he or she be a committer in Apache?
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Dmitriy Pavlov
>
>     пт, 2 нояб. 2018 г. в 14:31, Myrle Krantz <myrle@apache.org>:
>
>     > Hi Dmitriy,
>     >
>     > Is Ignite a PMC = committer community or a PMC ⊂ committer community?
>     >
>     > You may have different requirements for communication level
> depending on
>     > which of these your community is.  But I don't believe it is
> possible to
>     > write very good code without being willing to talk with others about
> it.
>     >
>     > Still, different communities have different "bars".  And I've come
> to be
>     > convinced by Greg Stein, that a lower committer bar is better for
>     > attracting contributions.  People might feel more comfortable
> communicating
>     > once they've been given the committer bit?
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     > Myrle
>     >
>     > On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 9:53 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> >
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     > > Dear ASF Fellows,
>     > >
>     > > I am PMC member of Apache Ignite, but I joined PMC relatively
> recently. I
>     > > need help from you again in regarding the Apache Way.
>     > >
>     > > Question is related to comittership for community members,
>     > >
>     > > - who are not visible on dev/user list, have a couple of threads
> they
>     > > participated
>     > >
>     > > - but contributed a significant feature or many fixes.
>     > >
>     > > Usually, such contributors work for a commercial company with
> sufficient
>     > > product expertise, so they probably collaborate with experts, but
> outside
>     > > space of Apache.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > Several guides and policies
>     > >
>     > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy
>     > >
>     > > http://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html
>     > >
>     > > and others say that PMC member needs to evaluate communication and
>     > > cooperative work with peers, ability to be a mentor, behavior in
>     > > disagreement.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > Communication is required by Apache Ignite guide
>     > >
>     > >
>     >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/Committership+Bar+Guidance
>     > >
>     > > Simultaneously
>     > >
> https://community.apache.org/contributors/#contributing-a-project-copdoc
>     > >
>     > > contains a mention someone who contributed sufficiently to ‘ANY’
> area may
>     > > become a committer. So why can't we count code only contribution
> without
>     > > contribution to community/project?
>     > >
>     > > There are several cases when I may disagree with other PMC members.
>     > >
>     > > I insist candidate should communicate in ASF space because A)
>     > > community-first and motto: B) “If it didn’t happen on the mailing
> list it
>     > > didn’t happen.” For such cases then contributors collaborate
> outside
>     > Apache
>     > > space we can still accept a contribution, still appreciate
> contributor’s
>     > > effort and say thank you; but not promote as a committer. But I may
>     > > over-estimate the role of collaboration in the ASF. I may be too
> strict
>     > in
>     > > understanding ASF principles.
>     > >
>     > > But PMCs who suggest such comittership candidates may
> counter-argument
>     > >
>     > > - those cool developers don't like to communicate (they may be a
> little
>     > bit
>     > > uncomfortable with public communications/tries to avoid spam/any
> other
>     > > reasons they have).
>     > >
>     > > - If he or she will communicate often, then he or she will never
> have
>     > time
>     > > to write a code.
>     > >
>     > > So what do you think? Is it required to communicate with the rest
> of the
>     > > community publicly more than a couple of times to become a
> committer?
>     > >
>     > > Sincerely,
>     > >
>     > > Dmitriy Pavlov
>     > >
>     >
>
>
>

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