community-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Matthew Sacks <matt...@matthewsacks.com>
Subject Re: Profile photos and ASF values
Date Wed, 01 Feb 2017 07:23:21 GMT
One day the swastika will be an ancient symbol as well.


Let's stick to software?

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com> wrote:

> Arijit,
>
>
>
> I agree that the symbol can have many meanings and that it is a modern
>
> tragedy that symbols with good meanings have been used for evil.
>
>
>
> I don't think it implies that any kind of heritage or culture has to be
>
> lost here.
>
>
>
> I would suggest that you consider people who see your emails without your
>
> explanations. There is thus a significant likelihood of unfortunate
>
> misunderstanding without your intent.
>
>
>
> The situation would be the same if a greeting that includes a blessing in
>
> one language is an insult in another, second, language. Is it pragmatically
>
> a good idea to continue to use the greeting if you are meeting with many
>
> speakers of the second language? You could argue you mean no harm and you
>
> can argue that the literal meaning of what you say in the language you
>
> using is beneficent, but you cannot argue that many people will
>
> misunderstand you and be offended. If that is not your intent, you have
>
> failed to communicate well.
>
>
>
> So it is with symbols that have different meanings in the culture (or
>
> cultures) you are communicating with. People will misunderstand you. If
>
> your intent is for them to understand you, then you will not succeed as
>
> well as you might.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:13 PM, ARIJIT DAS <arijit.mcse.ju@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  Please note Swastika is an ancient symbol of Hindus in India...Hitler
> used
>
> > it no way implies that the symbol is improper...If you go through our
> Vedas
>
> > and other mythologies you will find it symbolizes the knowledge and
>
> > power...and still today danish air force also uses this symbol.India has
>
> > one of the richest culture and heritage in the world.Many people has used
>
> > manything of our culture and heritage in many ways for many purpose some
>
> > are good some are bad.Why will we give up something which symbolizes
>
> > actually good in our culture? World leaders should learn the lesson from
>
> > WW2 from Hiroshima Nagasaki from adverse effects of colonization from
>
> > exploitation of poor.Mere opposing a symbol will add any value to
> mankind?
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:30 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > +1 for Ted's approach.
>
> > >
>
> > > I'm young in terms of ASF years, but I've found it to be very
> apolitical.
>
> > > Recently it's actually been a refreshing departure from what seems like
>
> > an
>
> > > avalanche. It seems most people here seem to check their personal
> beliefs
>
> > > at the door.
>
> > >
>
> > > My guess is that it is a case of innocence, but a follow up with
>
> > > information about cultural sensitivities seems prudent.
>
> > >
>
> > > -Taylor
>
> > >
>
> > > > On Jan 31, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org>
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > As Ted pointed out, it is an ancient symbol found in most Far East
>
> > > > mythology and the Hindu religion. "Out here" you will find it quite
>
> > > often,
>
> > > > on shops, temples and business cards. It doesn't "carry weight"
> unless
>
> > it
>
> > > > comes in black on white, with the Nazi proportions of widths. The
> Nazi
>
> > > one
>
> > > > was also at an angle.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > We all know that in this instance, there is no malignant intent, and
>
> > > should
>
> > > > not require any action.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > And we have not had any case of "red and black" and "something needs
> to
>
> > > be
>
> > > > said" as far as I know.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > But the 'solution' is relatively simple; ASF is a non-political
>
> > > > organization, and expression of political views (such as showing
>
> > > political
>
> > > > allegiance, berating political figures, commenting on political
>
> > activity,
>
> > > > and so on) is not acceptable, regardless if that is a hate
> organization
>
> > > > like the Nazis or more moderate political statements that many may
>
> > agree
>
> > > > with, say recent elections in the world or outbreaks of war. We
> should
>
> > > not
>
> > > > be involved, I think we are even obliged by Law to not be involved.
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Cheers
>
> > > > Niclas
>
> > > >
>
> > > >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Palumbo <ap.dev@outlook.com>
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> I am pretty new around here and don't know if this is a more private
>
> > > room
>
> > > >> for ASF members .. but my .02:  of it is in red and black, then
>
> > > something
>
> > > >> needs to be said.
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> -------- Original message --------
>
> > > >> From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
>
> > > >> Date: 01/31/2017 3:50 PM (GMT-08:00)
>
> > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org
>
> > > >> Subject: Re: Profile photos and ASF values
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> Yeah... I twitched when I saw that.
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> My suspicion is that this is being used in the ancient, pre-nazi
>
> > sense.
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >> It is hard to believe that somebody is ignorant of the impact it
> must
>
> > > have
>
> > > >> on some readers.
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Christopher <ctubbsii@apache.org>
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> Hi all,
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> It is surprising to me that a certain individual participant in
ASF
>
> > > >> forums
>
> > > >>> seems to be using a swastika as their Google profile photo. The
>
> > impact
>
> > > of
>
> > > >>> this is that ASF users which use GMail to interact with the mailing
>
> > > >> lists,
>
> > > >>> are presented with this swastika whenever reading or interacting
> with
>
> > > ASF
>
> > > >>> forums using GMail.
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> To be clear, this symbol can have alternate meanings, and it may
> not
>
> > be
>
> > > >>> intentionally being used as Nazi symbol. Additionally, even if
this
>
> > > >>> individual holds to certain ideologies which may be antithetical
to
>
> > ASF
>
> > > >>> community inclusive values, they may act entirely professional
and
> in
>
> > > >>> accordance with ASF code of conduct on Apache forums. So, I don't
>
> > want
>
> > > to
>
> > > >>> imply that the profile photo is indicative of their ASF
>
> > interactions...
>
> > > >> it
>
> > > >>> may be an entirely separate thing.
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> My main inquiry here is to question whether or not there is a
>
> > concern,
>
> > > >>> because the use of such profile photos may actually have
> consequences
>
> > > of
>
> > > >>> deterring potential new committers, because Apache may be indicted
> by
>
> > > >>> association.
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> Is there something we wish to do about this? Is it a non-issue?
I
>
> > > really
>
> > > >>> don't know. All I know, is my gut tells me that I'm bothered when
I
>
> > see
>
> > > >> it
>
> > > >>> (I use GMail). But, I don't want to overreact, or start a witch
> hunt.
>
> > > I'm
>
> > > >>> genuinely curious if this is something we want to address at all.
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> If the profile photo is used on ASF infrastructure (JIRA,
> affiliated
>
> > > as a
>
> > > >>> member of the Apache org on GitHub, etc.), then I think we probably
>
> > do
>
> > > >> want
>
> > > >>> to address it in the Code of Conduct. However, unrelated services
>
> > like
>
> > > >>> Google profile photos... that may not be something we want to
>
> > address,
>
> > > >>> because the web mail client users use is not related to ASF
> services
>
> > > >> (even
>
> > > >>> if it were know for user that it impacted ASF community by
> deterring
>
> > > >>> potential new community members).
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>> In any case, I don't raise this issue to demean the individual
> whose
>
> > > >>> profile photo came to my attention... this is not an attack on
> them.
>
> > > >> Again,
>
> > > >>> this is not a witch hunt.
>
> > > >>> --
>
> > > >>> Christopher
>
> > > >>>
>
> > > >>
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > > > --
>
> > > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>
> > > > http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy
for
>
> > > Java
>
> > >
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
>

Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message