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From Christopher <ctubb...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Profile photos and ASF values
Date Wed, 01 Feb 2017 08:26:59 GMT
For the record, this list is specially for community development, not
software development. Discussions about things pertaining to community
growth, and cultural misunderstandings affecting community cohesion seem
appropriate here.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017, 02:23 Matthew Sacks <matthew@matthewsacks.com> wrote:

> One day the swastika will be an ancient symbol as well.
>
>
> Let's stick to software?
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Arijit,
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree that the symbol can have many meanings and that it is a modern
> >
> > tragedy that symbols with good meanings have been used for evil.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think it implies that any kind of heritage or culture has to be
> >
> > lost here.
> >
> >
> >
> > I would suggest that you consider people who see your emails without your
> >
> > explanations. There is thus a significant likelihood of unfortunate
> >
> > misunderstanding without your intent.
> >
> >
> >
> > The situation would be the same if a greeting that includes a blessing in
> >
> > one language is an insult in another, second, language. Is it
> pragmatically
> >
> > a good idea to continue to use the greeting if you are meeting with many
> >
> > speakers of the second language? You could argue you mean no harm and you
> >
> > can argue that the literal meaning of what you say in the language you
> >
> > using is beneficent, but you cannot argue that many people will
> >
> > misunderstand you and be offended. If that is not your intent, you have
> >
> > failed to communicate well.
> >
> >
> >
> > So it is with symbols that have different meanings in the culture (or
> >
> > cultures) you are communicating with. People will misunderstand you. If
> >
> > your intent is for them to understand you, then you will not succeed as
> >
> > well as you might.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:13 PM, ARIJIT DAS <arijit.mcse.ju@gmail.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >  Please note Swastika is an ancient symbol of Hindus in India...Hitler
> > used
> >
> > > it no way implies that the symbol is improper...If you go through our
> > Vedas
> >
> > > and other mythologies you will find it symbolizes the knowledge and
> >
> > > power...and still today danish air force also uses this symbol.India
> has
> >
> > > one of the richest culture and heritage in the world.Many people has
> used
> >
> > > manything of our culture and heritage in many ways for many purpose
> some
> >
> > > are good some are bad.Why will we give up something which symbolizes
> >
> > > actually good in our culture? World leaders should learn the lesson
> from
> >
> > > WW2 from Hiroshima Nagasaki from adverse effects of colonization from
> >
> > > exploitation of poor.Mere opposing a symbol will add any value to
> > mankind?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:30 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > > +1 for Ted's approach.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > I'm young in terms of ASF years, but I've found it to be very
> > apolitical.
> >
> > > > Recently it's actually been a refreshing departure from what seems
> like
> >
> > > an
> >
> > > > avalanche. It seems most people here seem to check their personal
> > beliefs
> >
> > > > at the door.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > My guess is that it is a case of innocence, but a follow up with
> >
> > > > information about cultural sensitivities seems prudent.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > -Taylor
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > > On Jan 31, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org>
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > As Ted pointed out, it is an ancient symbol found in most Far East
> >
> > > > > mythology and the Hindu religion. "Out here" you will find it quite
> >
> > > > often,
> >
> > > > > on shops, temples and business cards. It doesn't "carry weight"
> > unless
> >
> > > it
> >
> > > > > comes in black on white, with the Nazi proportions of widths. The
> > Nazi
> >
> > > > one
> >
> > > > > was also at an angle.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > We all know that in this instance, there is no malignant intent,
> and
> >
> > > > should
> >
> > > > > not require any action.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > And we have not had any case of "red and black" and "something
> needs
> > to
> >
> > > > be
> >
> > > > > said" as far as I know.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > But the 'solution' is relatively simple; ASF is a non-political
> >
> > > > > organization, and expression of political views (such as showing
> >
> > > > political
> >
> > > > > allegiance, berating political figures, commenting on political
> >
> > > activity,
> >
> > > > > and so on) is not acceptable, regardless if that is a hate
> > organization
> >
> > > > > like the Nazis or more moderate political statements that many may
> >
> > > agree
> >
> > > > > with, say recent elections in the world or outbreaks of war. We
> > should
> >
> > > > not
> >
> > > > > be involved, I think we are even obliged by Law to not be involved.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Cheers
> >
> > > > > Niclas
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Palumbo <
> ap.dev@outlook.com>
> >
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> I am pretty new around here and don't know if this is a more
> private
> >
> > > > room
> >
> > > > >> for ASF members .. but my .02:  of it is in red and black, then
> >
> > > > something
> >
> > > > >> needs to be said.
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> -------- Original message --------
> >
> > > > >> From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> >
> > > > >> Date: 01/31/2017 3:50 PM (GMT-08:00)
> >
> > > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > >> Subject: Re: Profile photos and ASF values
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> Yeah... I twitched when I saw that.
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> My suspicion is that this is being used in the ancient, pre-nazi
> >
> > > sense.
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >> It is hard to believe that somebody is ignorant of the impact
it
> > must
> >
> > > > have
> >
> > > > >> on some readers.
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Christopher <
> ctubbsii@apache.org>
> >
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> Hi all,
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> It is surprising to me that a certain individual participant
in
> ASF
> >
> > > > >> forums
> >
> > > > >>> seems to be using a swastika as their Google profile photo.
The
> >
> > > impact
> >
> > > > of
> >
> > > > >>> this is that ASF users which use GMail to interact with the
> mailing
> >
> > > > >> lists,
> >
> > > > >>> are presented with this swastika whenever reading or interacting
> > with
> >
> > > > ASF
> >
> > > > >>> forums using GMail.
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> To be clear, this symbol can have alternate meanings, and
it may
> > not
> >
> > > be
> >
> > > > >>> intentionally being used as Nazi symbol. Additionally, even
if
> this
> >
> > > > >>> individual holds to certain ideologies which may be antithetical
> to
> >
> > > ASF
> >
> > > > >>> community inclusive values, they may act entirely professional
> and
> > in
> >
> > > > >>> accordance with ASF code of conduct on Apache forums. So,
I don't
> >
> > > want
> >
> > > > to
> >
> > > > >>> imply that the profile photo is indicative of their ASF
> >
> > > interactions...
> >
> > > > >> it
> >
> > > > >>> may be an entirely separate thing.
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> My main inquiry here is to question whether or not there
is a
> >
> > > concern,
> >
> > > > >>> because the use of such profile photos may actually have
> > consequences
> >
> > > > of
> >
> > > > >>> deterring potential new committers, because Apache may be
> indicted
> > by
> >
> > > > >>> association.
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> Is there something we wish to do about this? Is it a non-issue?
I
> >
> > > > really
> >
> > > > >>> don't know. All I know, is my gut tells me that I'm bothered
> when I
> >
> > > see
> >
> > > > >> it
> >
> > > > >>> (I use GMail). But, I don't want to overreact, or start a
witch
> > hunt.
> >
> > > > I'm
> >
> > > > >>> genuinely curious if this is something we want to address
at all.
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> If the profile photo is used on ASF infrastructure (JIRA,
> > affiliated
> >
> > > > as a
> >
> > > > >>> member of the Apache org on GitHub, etc.), then I think we
> probably
> >
> > > do
> >
> > > > >> want
> >
> > > > >>> to address it in the Code of Conduct. However, unrelated
services
> >
> > > like
> >
> > > > >>> Google profile photos... that may not be something we want
to
> >
> > > address,
> >
> > > > >>> because the web mail client users use is not related to ASF
> > services
> >
> > > > >> (even
> >
> > > > >>> if it were know for user that it impacted ASF community by
> > deterring
> >
> > > > >>> potential new community members).
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>> In any case, I don't raise this issue to demean the individual
> > whose
> >
> > > > >>> profile photo came to my attention... this is not an attack
on
> > them.
> >
> > > > >> Again,
> >
> > > > >>> this is not a witch hunt.
> >
> > > > >>> --
> >
> > > > >>> Christopher
> >
> > > > >>>
> >
> > > > >>
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > --
> >
> > > > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> >
> > > > > http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy
> for
> >
> > > > Java
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
>
-- 
Christopher

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