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From Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Profile photos and ASF values
Date Wed, 01 Feb 2017 06:29:18 GMT
Arijit,

I agree that the symbol can have many meanings and that it is a modern
tragedy that symbols with good meanings have been used for evil.

I don't think it implies that any kind of heritage or culture has to be
lost here.

I would suggest that you consider people who see your emails without your
explanations. There is thus a significant likelihood of unfortunate
misunderstanding without your intent.

The situation would be the same if a greeting that includes a blessing in
one language is an insult in another, second, language. Is it pragmatically
a good idea to continue to use the greeting if you are meeting with many
speakers of the second language? You could argue you mean no harm and you
can argue that the literal meaning of what you say in the language you
using is beneficent, but you cannot argue that many people will
misunderstand you and be offended. If that is not your intent, you have
failed to communicate well.

So it is with symbols that have different meanings in the culture (or
cultures) you are communicating with. People will misunderstand you. If
your intent is for them to understand you, then you will not succeed as
well as you might.





On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:13 PM, ARIJIT DAS <arijit.mcse.ju@gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Please note Swastika is an ancient symbol of Hindus in India...Hitler used
> it no way implies that the symbol is improper...If you go through our Vedas
> and other mythologies you will find it symbolizes the knowledge and
> power...and still today danish air force also uses this symbol.India has
> one of the richest culture and heritage in the world.Many people has used
> manything of our culture and heritage in many ways for many purpose some
> are good some are bad.Why will we give up something which symbolizes
> actually good in our culture? World leaders should learn the lesson from
> WW2 from Hiroshima Nagasaki from adverse effects of colonization from
> exploitation of poor.Mere opposing a symbol will add any value to mankind?
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 10:30 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1 for Ted's approach.
> >
> > I'm young in terms of ASF years, but I've found it to be very apolitical.
> > Recently it's actually been a refreshing departure from what seems like
> an
> > avalanche. It seems most people here seem to check their personal beliefs
> > at the door.
> >
> > My guess is that it is a case of innocence, but a follow up with
> > information about cultural sensitivities seems prudent.
> >
> > -Taylor
> >
> > > On Jan 31, 2017, at 7:14 PM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > As Ted pointed out, it is an ancient symbol found in most Far East
> > > mythology and the Hindu religion. "Out here" you will find it quite
> > often,
> > > on shops, temples and business cards. It doesn't "carry weight" unless
> it
> > > comes in black on white, with the Nazi proportions of widths. The Nazi
> > one
> > > was also at an angle.
> > >
> > > We all know that in this instance, there is no malignant intent, and
> > should
> > > not require any action.
> > >
> > > And we have not had any case of "red and black" and "something needs to
> > be
> > > said" as far as I know.
> > >
> > > But the 'solution' is relatively simple; ASF is a non-political
> > > organization, and expression of political views (such as showing
> > political
> > > allegiance, berating political figures, commenting on political
> activity,
> > > and so on) is not acceptable, regardless if that is a hate organization
> > > like the Nazis or more moderate political statements that many may
> agree
> > > with, say recent elections in the world or outbreaks of war. We should
> > not
> > > be involved, I think we are even obliged by Law to not be involved.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Niclas
> > >
> > >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:58 AM, Andrew Palumbo <ap.dev@outlook.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I am pretty new around here and don't know if this is a more private
> > room
> > >> for ASF members .. but my .02:  of it is in red and black, then
> > something
> > >> needs to be said.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -------- Original message --------
> > >> From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: 01/31/2017 3:50 PM (GMT-08:00)
> > >> To: dev@community.apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Profile photos and ASF values
> > >>
> > >> Yeah... I twitched when I saw that.
> > >>
> > >> My suspicion is that this is being used in the ancient, pre-nazi
> sense.
> > >>
> > >> It is hard to believe that somebody is ignorant of the impact it must
> > have
> > >> on some readers.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Christopher <ctubbsii@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> It is surprising to me that a certain individual participant in ASF
> > >> forums
> > >>> seems to be using a swastika as their Google profile photo. The
> impact
> > of
> > >>> this is that ASF users which use GMail to interact with the mailing
> > >> lists,
> > >>> are presented with this swastika whenever reading or interacting with
> > ASF
> > >>> forums using GMail.
> > >>>
> > >>> To be clear, this symbol can have alternate meanings, and it may not
> be
> > >>> intentionally being used as Nazi symbol. Additionally, even if this
> > >>> individual holds to certain ideologies which may be antithetical to
> ASF
> > >>> community inclusive values, they may act entirely professional and
in
> > >>> accordance with ASF code of conduct on Apache forums. So, I don't
> want
> > to
> > >>> imply that the profile photo is indicative of their ASF
> interactions...
> > >> it
> > >>> may be an entirely separate thing.
> > >>>
> > >>> My main inquiry here is to question whether or not there is a
> concern,
> > >>> because the use of such profile photos may actually have consequences
> > of
> > >>> deterring potential new committers, because Apache may be indicted
by
> > >>> association.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there something we wish to do about this? Is it a non-issue? I
> > really
> > >>> don't know. All I know, is my gut tells me that I'm bothered when I
> see
> > >> it
> > >>> (I use GMail). But, I don't want to overreact, or start a witch hunt.
> > I'm
> > >>> genuinely curious if this is something we want to address at all.
> > >>>
> > >>> If the profile photo is used on ASF infrastructure (JIRA, affiliated
> > as a
> > >>> member of the Apache org on GitHub, etc.), then I think we probably
> do
> > >> want
> > >>> to address it in the Code of Conduct. However, unrelated services
> like
> > >>> Google profile photos... that may not be something we want to
> address,
> > >>> because the web mail client users use is not related to ASF services
> > >> (even
> > >>> if it were know for user that it impacted ASF community by deterring
> > >>> potential new community members).
> > >>>
> > >>> In any case, I don't raise this issue to demean the individual whose
> > >>> profile photo came to my attention... this is not an attack on them.
> > >> Again,
> > >>> this is not a witch hunt.
> > >>> --
> > >>> Christopher
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > > http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for
> > Java
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>

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