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From: Naomi Slater <nslater@apache.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:40:28 +0000
Message-ID: <CAPaJBx7kok1WV=bKfZgbV8ek1enu3NxrrmJOqdELH5Z6AMYkng@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Diversity: How many disabled people are at Apache
To: dev@community.apache.org, niclas@hedhman.org
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archived-at: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:40:47 -0000

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On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 at 17:18 Niclas Hedhman <hedhman@gmail.com> wrote:

> My claim is that we are not competent to dig in it, and papers that Joan
> pointed towards even states that diversity is not a sure positive (yes, I
> read...)
>

To use gender diversity again as an illustrative example, there are women
on this list trying to help make Apache more welcoming and rewarding for
women and you're saying we don't have the skills to fix our issues. Uh?

My position is that there is no one stopping anyone to join (unlimited

positions available, unlike job positions, university seats and board room
> chairs), and no foundation-wide action is needed.


Nobody is arguing this. Certainly not as simplistically as you impute.
We're arguing that there are structural issues with our organisation that
bias us in certain ways.


> compared to the elephant in the room; English only dev@ communications...
> Something no one dares to touch, but is much, much more exclusionary than
> anything you can come with.
>

This is a false dilemma. If you are interested in making Apache more
welcoming to non Anglophone contributors I suggest you start working on it.
That sounds like a laudable goal.

Collaborating across languages is a tough problem. By comparison,
diversity/inclusion initiatives not tackling this are low hanging fruit.

I never said, nor implied, that women (or any other underrepresented group)
> are not competent. One highly speculative idea is that many find places
> where the skills are better utilized, gives better return, or could be
> deeply psychological about other priorities in life... I could speculate
> that we are a miserable bunch, who find joy in the boring process of
> writing software, that is not very visible, no glory and doing so without
> pay...


Why are you speculating at all when there are women on this list telling
you what the problems are and trying to work on them. (An activity you are
hampering.)


> That women are underrepresented in CS is not ASF's fault, hope you
> can agree with that, and then it could be that there is a amplification
> effect in ASF and possibly other low-profile, highly technical
> organization.


CS and tech (as a career) are already pretty inhospitable for marginalised
people. Open source, generally speaking, amplifies those problems. So we
actually agree on this. Except your response seems to be resignation,
whereas mine is "let's figure out how we're amplifying those things and
then stop doing it".

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