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From Naomi Slater <nsla...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Diversity: How many disabled people are at Apache
Date Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:01:29 GMT
Joseph/Dave, can you clarify whether you are criticising Niclas's behaviour
on this thread, or whether you are criticising the fact that people
criticised Niclas's behaviour on this thread, or both (and if so, in what
proportion). Some of what was written suggests the former, and some
("fanning the flames") suggests the latter.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 at 03:38 Joseph Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com.invalid>
wrote:

> Exactly Dave! How the hell did we wind up talking about these matters from
> Rafael's innocent question?  Oh right because he used the word diversity in
> the subject. Obviously that was a huge error in judgement, right?
>
> Rafael there are others like you at apache, all dealing with disability of
> one kind or another.  I know this for a fact because I both am one (or at
> least used to be) and have met brilliant minds in my travels within apache
> who also suffer.  I can't imagine why anyone of those people would comment
> on a public thread like this given the nascent hostility and hijacking
> evidenced here, but this is so sad and so common that saying nothing would
> have been a travesty.
>
>
> Keep up the great work Rafael and hopefully I'll see you in Miami someday!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 16, 2016, at 6:33 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > I am really not sure what you are doing in this thread has any merit. I
> think you think that last person standing wins the day.
> >
> > Actually threads like this drive people away. This is an assertion of my
> experience on Apache threads on projects like OpenOffice and POI where
> flames have been fanned and domination has either ruled or been defeated.
> Always at cost to the community.
> >
> > Just saying...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Dec 16, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Niclas Hedhman <hedhman@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My claim is that we are not competent to dig in it, and papers that Joan
> >> pointed towards even states that diversity is not a sure positive (yes,
> I
> >> read...)
> >>
> >> My position is that there is no one stopping anyone to join (unlimited
> >> positions available, unlike job positions, university seats and board
> room
> >> chairs), and no foundation-wide action is needed. And that the "push"
> for
> >> gender/race/++ diversity "initiatives" is a storm in a water glass,
> >> compared to the elephant in the room; English only dev@
> communications...
> >> Something no one dares to touch, but is much, much more exclusionary
> than
> >> anything you can come with.
> >>
> >> Soooo,
> >> I never said, nor implied, that women (or any other underrepresented
> group)
> >> are not competent. One highly speculative idea is that many find places
> >> where the skills are better utilized, gives better return, or could be
> >> deeply psychological about other priorities in life... I could speculate
> >> that we are a miserable bunch, who find joy in the boring process of
> >> writing software, that is not very visible, no glory and doing so
> without
> >> pay... That women are underrepresented in CS is not ASF's fault, hope
> you
> >> can agree with that, and then it could be that there is a amplification
> >> effect in ASF and possibly other low-profile, highly technical
> >> organization. And I am convinced that whoever dig in this, will only
> come
> >> to their own preconceived conclusion.
> >>
> >> So YES, you projected a position onto me, and that was dishonest at
> best...
> >> don't put words in my mouth. I feel offended.
> >>
> >> Cheers and have a good weekend
> >>
> >> Niclas
> >>
> >>> On Dec 15, 2016 21:17, "Naomi Slater" <nslater@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> first of all, you make a 'category' that in this case encompasses
> roughly
> >> half the population. Then you make the strawman that I claim that this
> huge
> >> category has no skills. Dishonest, at best.
> >>
> >> I didn't claim that. I said it was an implication of your line of
> thought.
> >> How else will you justify female participation levels at Apache that are
> >> dramatically lower than, say, American computer science degree programs.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 at 22:19 Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 12/14/2016 10:22 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> >>> Rich,
> >>> I know that diversity is sold as self-interest and that more diverse
> >>> communities are (claimed to be, but I have not found any such
> reference to
> >>> studies in software, but I can grant that) creating better products. I
> am
> >>> not as ignorant as you may think. Take a look at ROSE[1]. "I would
> like a
> >>> job in Technology" shows an incredible disparity between boys and
> girls in
> >>> rich countries. One can ponder over that one alone for a long time...
> >>> "Working with People rather than Things" will then make you wonder some
> >>> more...
> >>> Other people are devoting research careers to this topic, and I don't
> >> think
> >>> the ASF has needed competence to do this properly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] Relevance of Science Education (ROSE) study, SjĂžberg & Schreiner
> 2010
> >>
> >> I don't think you're ignorant at all. I know for a fact that you're not.
> >> Which is why I'm actually taking the time to try to understand what your
> >> perspective is on this.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> >> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> >
> >
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