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From Niclas Hedhman <hedh...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Diversity: How many disabled people are at Apache
Date Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:18:20 GMT
My claim is that we are not competent to dig in it, and papers that Joan
pointed towards even states that diversity is not a sure positive (yes, I
read...)

My position is that there is no one stopping anyone to join (unlimited
positions available, unlike job positions, university seats and board room
chairs), and no foundation-wide action is needed. And that the "push" for
gender/race/++ diversity "initiatives" is a storm in a water glass,
compared to the elephant in the room; English only dev@ communications...
Something no one dares to touch, but is much, much more exclusionary than
anything you can come with.

Soooo,
I never said, nor implied, that women (or any other underrepresented group)
are not competent. One highly speculative idea is that many find places
where the skills are better utilized, gives better return, or could be
deeply psychological about other priorities in life... I could speculate
that we are a miserable bunch, who find joy in the boring process of
writing software, that is not very visible, no glory and doing so without
pay... That women are underrepresented in CS is not ASF's fault, hope you
can agree with that, and then it could be that there is a amplification
effect in ASF and possibly other low-profile, highly technical
organization. And I am convinced that whoever dig in this, will only come
to their own preconceived conclusion.

So YES, you projected a position onto me, and that was dishonest at best...
don't put words in my mouth. I feel offended.

Cheers and have a good weekend

Niclas

On Dec 15, 2016 21:17, "Naomi Slater" <nslater@apache.org> wrote:

> first of all, you make a 'category' that in this case encompasses roughly
half the population. Then you make the strawman that I claim that this huge
category has no skills. Dishonest, at best.

I didn't claim that. I said it was an implication of your line of thought.
How else will you justify female participation levels at Apache that are
dramatically lower than, say, American computer science degree programs.



On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 at 22:19 Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com> wrote:



On 12/14/2016 10:22 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Rich,
> I know that diversity is sold as self-interest and that more diverse
> communities are (claimed to be, but I have not found any such reference to
> studies in software, but I can grant that) creating better products. I am
> not as ignorant as you may think. Take a look at ROSE[1]. "I would like a
> job in Technology" shows an incredible disparity between boys and girls in
> rich countries. One can ponder over that one alone for a long time...
> "Working with People rather than Things" will then make you wonder some
> more...
> Other people are devoting research careers to this topic, and I don't
think
> the ASF has needed competence to do this properly.
>
>
> [1] Relevance of Science Education (ROSE) study, SjĂžberg & Schreiner 2010

I don't think you're ignorant at all. I know for a fact that you're not.
Which is why I'm actually taking the time to try to understand what your
perspective is on this.

--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

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