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From Noah Slater <>
Subject Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
Date Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:48:46 GMT
If someone in an org I cared about told me they had to take a break for
over a year because it was too damaging for their emotional health I would
be extremely alarmed. My first response would be more to the tune of "oh
wow, I'm so sorry, that's so awful."

I certainly would not immediately jump to dismissing them, asking for
"proof", or describing their experience as a "hypothetical".

It's precisely this sort of stuff that pushed me away in the first place.
Perhaps you're not aware of how upsetting it is to have people react like
this. It can inflict a lot of harm, in aggregate, over time.

You want some sort of "record" to consume. Is a person, on a mailing list,
saying "hey this place was so bad for me I had to take a break" not
evidence enough for you that something might be wrong?

As for the rest of it, this org keeps records of every email sent to the
lists. It would not be hard for you to go looking for context if you wanted

Asking me to go over all that stuff again (which I find upsetting to even
think about) days after returning here hoping things would be nicer for me,
is, well, ... it's not particularly considerate.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 at 15:11 Niclas Hedhman <> wrote:

ASF has not gotten to where it is by generalizations and abstractions of
nonexistent issues. Whenever anyone brings up a hypothetical, be it in
Legal or Membership quorums, the response is that we deal with it when
there are actual usecases.
I am asking for examples, some type of record to consume to form myself an
opinion of whether anything new is needed. If such pragmatism hurts your
feelings, well... I might pity you for being too sensitive, but it is not
an argument and you are not convincing me of anything.


On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Noah Slater <> wrote:

> I took a leave of absence from the ASF for over a year (my previous email
> on this thread was one of my first since returning) precisely because the
> treatment I got on these mailing lists was so deleterious for my mental
> health that I had to take a break, for my safety.
> Positioning *war* as the canonical example of un-safety is a poor one.
> There are many forms of safety. Feeling like a community is a good place
> for you to inhabit, feeling like it wont harm you (emotionally, mentally,
> or otherwise) is well within the remit of safety that we, as a
> community-focused org, should be concerned about.
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 at 10:32 Mark Thomas <> wrote:
> > On 14/11/2016 00:52, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Sharan Foga <> wrote:
> > >
> > >> *General Diversity Approach and Strategy*
> > >> I haven't had much time to update this on the wiki but once the
> > committer
> > >> survey is complete I will be able to perhaps tailor it based on the
> > results.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Diversity+Strategy+Ideas
> > >>
> > >> I'm still interested in getting feedback and ideas from anyone about
> > ways
> > >> to develop the strategy and actions we can take to help encourage
> > diversity.
> >
> > <snip/>
> >
> > > So; What does "feel safe" mean?
> > > In this context, it must be a first world non-problem. Because I doubt
> > that
> > > you think ASF committers will be hit by drone strikes if their
> > is
> > > known, that an unfortunate email will cause terrorist attacks or
> > indirectly
> > > causing thermo-nuclear war. "Safe" means that there is no imminent
> danger
> > > to our lives and physical health. Maslow's somewhat revised hierarchy
> > also
> > > includes "financial security" as it quite directly affects our
> survival.
> > > "Safe" doesn't encompass "not feeling happy", "I was offended" and
> other
> > > non-sense.
> > > If you against all odds are talking about real safety; I can't imagine
> > that
> > > anyone became more unsafe after joining ASF communities. Right?
> >
> > Wrong. There are examples of people being threatened and/or assaulted
> > directly as a result of their participation in an ASF community. I'm one
> > of them.
> >
> > I whole-heartedly support the work that Sharan is doing this area. I am
> > of the view that the phrase "feel safe" is an critical element of the
> > desired outcomes and should remain.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >
> >

Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer - New Energy for Java

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