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From Noah Slater <nsla...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
Date Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:47:24 GMT
Not sure how we got here. I wasn't suggesting we update our code of conduct.

Niclas was attacking the concept of "safety", so I was providing a concrete
example of someone (me) who does not feel safe.

Niclas’s response is an example of the sort of thing that has contributed
to me not feeling safe around here. And I believe the existing code of
conduct already covers what happened on this thread (broadly) in point two
("Be empathetic, welcoming, friendly, and patient.") and five ("Be careful
in the words that we choose.”).

Niclas wants to know what we mean by "safe".

I will feel "safe" in this community when I feel like the people here care
about me and will treat me with empathy and kindness.

But that''s a symptom of a healthy community with healthy interactions.
Nobody want's to "enforce happiness".

But it would be nice if we got to the point where, for example, the
community did not tolerate the dismissal of people's experiences as
hypothetical non-issues that require detailed documentary evidence to be
presented to anyone who asks for it every time anything is mentioned, even
in passing, lest the person be accused of of being a "social justice
warrior" "breeding" a "cry-baby and victimhood culture".

Like, you realise how defensive and resistant to introspection and change
this makes us look as a group of people?

We don't learn how to improve by making sure that anybody with the info and
experiences we could learn from don't feel comfortable speaking.


On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 at 18:30 Alex Harui <aharui@adobe.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/15/16, 9:03 AM, "Patricia Shanahan" <pats@acm.org> wrote:
>
> >That should be "example of undesirable behavior". One could obviously
> >write a rule that prohibits using words with more than three syllables
> >in e-mails.
>
> Personally, I don't think "rules", "standards" and "policies" are in play
> here.  The CoC describes what is truly out-of-bounds, but I generally
> agree with Noah that there is a lot of stuff that is in-bounds that still
> makes participating at Apache an uncomfortable and/or unhappy experience.
> But I can't imagine ever achieving consensus on codifying what that is.
>
> I don't think most cultures ever do codify such a thing. I haven't seen a
> set of rules for the US or Japan.  I think cultures socially encourage and
> discourage certain behavior to reach a certain result.  I would like to
> welcome Noah back, and am saddened that some of these emails could easily
> be seen as unwelcoming by many people, including myself.  Apache mailing
> lists often feel like  one of those bars in the rough part of town that I
> am too chicken to go into.  Obviously, enough people frequent those bars
> to keep them in business so they aren't violating any rules.  I just wish
> Apache mailing lists were more like family-friendly restaurants.  If an
> 11-year-old hot-shot coder wanted to participate in an ASF project, I
> would feel compelled to warn them and his/her parents that the tone on
> many mailing lists is not family-friendly.  I wish I didn't feel that way.
>  I don't understand why it has to be this way.
>
> -Alex
>
>
>
>

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