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From Patricia Shanahan <>
Subject Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6
Date Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:56:50 GMT
What I am looking for is an example of behavior that is permitted by the 
current code of conduct but that could be prohibited by a practical, 
enforceable set of rules.

On 11/15/2016 8:28 AM, Noah Slater wrote:
> What are you looking for, exactly? I'm not sure what a "use-case" is in
> this context.
> We have a concrete example of what not to do in this very thread already. I
> was contacted off-list by Niclas making it clear he expected me to provide
> proof that would "convince" him that I wasn't trying to "breed" a "a
> cry-baby and victimhood culture".
> Is this really the sort of thing we want to tolerate when a member of
> community mentions that they've had bad experiences before. Is this sort of
> thing the "inclusivity" and "welcoming-ness" we aim for?
> As it happens, I wasn't bringing up my bad experiences to make any concrete
> point about what we should or should not do re policy, only to refute
> Niclas's nonsense idea that "safety" is not a word we should be using.
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 at 16:58 Patricia Shanahan <> wrote:
>> On 11/15/2016 6:48 AM, Noah Slater wrote:
>> ...
>>> You want some sort of "record" to consume. Is a person, on a mailing
>> list,
>>> saying "hey this place was so bad for me I had to take a break" not
>>> evidence enough for you that something might be wrong?
>>> As for the rest of it, this org keeps records of every email sent to the
>>> lists. It would not be hard for you to go looking for context if you
>> wanted
>>> it.
>>> Asking me to go over all that stuff again (which I find upsetting to even
>>> think about) days after returning here hoping things would be nicer for
>> me,
>>> is, well, ... it's not particularly considerate.
>> ...
>> I don't think asking you to go over something you found upsetting is
>> necessary. On the other hand, I have started looking at the mail
>> archives for your 2015 participation, and I don't think I have found the
>> right context, or if I have I am not recognizing it.
>> Could you perhaps save some time by giving a pointer in terms of e.g. a
>> mailing list and topic?
>> Or, if you prefer we not discuss your particular situation, could you
>> give a pointer to any use-case, in terms of mailing list and topic?
>> This very discussion is an illustration of why "feeling" based standards
>> are a problem. Some people are not comfortable setting policies without
>> solid use-cases they can discuss and analyze. Others may not be
>> comfortable with discussion and analysis of those use-cases. How does
>> one accommodate both sets of feelings?
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