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Cc: "dev@community.apache.org" <dev@community.apache.org>,
 Lei Chang <chang.lei.cn@gmail.com>,
 "niclas@hedhman.org" <niclas@hedhman.org>
From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
 Community
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 18:30:23 +0800
To: Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com>


I was a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for contri=
bution.=20

The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the use of English t=
o allow as wide a participation as possible.=20

What do you think about creating a parallel organization that uses chinese i=
n the same way that apache uses English?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:22, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>=20
> Lei, Thanks. Ted
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei.cn@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:17 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Co=
mmunity
>=20
> +1 for a formal community project in China.
>=20
> There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in Chin=
a are developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).
>=20
> A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active a=
t ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to h=
appen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are about 5=
 million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is a great p=
otential to increase the number of contributors from Apache community in Chi=
na.
>=20
> Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get togethe=
r, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very h=
elpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on this.
>=20
> Cheers
> Lei
>=20
>=20
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Niclas,
>>=20
>> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed=20
>> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a=20
>> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and=20
>> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would=20
>> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That=E2=80=99s the reaso=
n why=20
>> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors,=20=

>> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by=20
>> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The=20
>> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly=20
>> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors,=20=

>> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>>=20
>> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how=20
>> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.=20
>> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans=20
>> Wechat social group
>> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a=20
>> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your=20
>> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and=20
>> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The=20
>> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger=20
>> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>>=20
>> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense=20
>> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at=20=

>> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and=20
>> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are=20
>> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China=20
>> community/group can contribute.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Ted
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache=20
>> China Community
>>=20
>> Ted,
>> 2 things...
>>=20
>> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>>=20
>> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization.=20
>> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not=20
>> command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is very little=20
>> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>>=20
>> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in=20
>> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older=20
>> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a=20=

>> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that=20
>> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly di=
fferently.
>>=20
>> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I=20
>> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation=20
>> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are=20
>> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>>=20
>> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion,=20
>> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the=20
>> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be=20
>> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors=20
>> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I=20
>> am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect contribut=
ion to ASF and other projects.
>>=20
>> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of=20
>> single big one.
>>=20
>> Keep up the positive work.
>>=20
>> Niclas
>>=20
>>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
>>>=20
>>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans=20
>>> in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
>>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
>>>=20
>>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China,=20
>>> such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public services=
.
>>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and=20
>>> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE=20
>>> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dwww.kaiyuanshe.o
>>> rg
>>> &data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef4
>>> 08=20
>>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dc9Ihr4CJ2iFC
>>> sX
>>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.
>>> ka
>>> iyuanshe.org&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
>>> 00=20
>>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D
>>> KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first=20
>>> ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open source=20
>>> governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 50 community=20
>>> and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the gaps between the=20
>>> leading international
>> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China.=20
>> The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE,=20
>> thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another roadsho=
w in China.
>>>=20
>>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by=20
>>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with ASF's=20
>>> community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett Porter,=20
>>> David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. Please=20
>>> see more roadshow details here.
>>>=20
>>> - ASF "Foundation" blog
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fs.ap
>>> ac
>>> he.org%2fq2L&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
>>> 00
>>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D
>>> m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fs.ap
>>> ac=20
>>> he.org%2fq2L&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b
>>> 8a=20
>>> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D
>>> BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
>>> - @TheASF Twitter feed
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2ftwi
>>> tt
>>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40
>>> 06
>>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86
>>> f1=20
>>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dqdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU37C
>>> Wt
>>> EOXwqg%3d<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2f%2ftwi
>>> tt
>>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40
>>> 06
>>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86
>>> f1
>>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dl6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CWhd
>>> X0
>>> GFRwPs%3d
>>> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
>>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
>>> -
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fapac
>>> he
>>> .org%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c2300844
>>> 57=20
>>> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DeH1M4
>>> gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fapac
>>> he
>>> .org%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314
>>> f8=20
>>> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DF1DdE
>>> AF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
>>> home page
>>>=20
>>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a=20
>>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended=20
>>> this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time or=20
>>> were unaware of the events. So far, there already are many=20
>>> volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, committers,=20
>>> contributors, developers and users, who are willing to join the=20
>>> China community steering committee and working groups to help grow=20
>>> the talents, projects and community in China and bridge between ASF=20
>>> and the fans in
>> China following the Apache way.
>>>=20
>>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans in=20
>>> China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev=20
>>> would be greatly appreciated.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Ted Liu
>>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding member=20
>>> of KAIYUANSHE
>>=20