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Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:56:43 +0800
Message-ID: 
 <CAE44UQey5LQSpC2=q5VJCk31oAZ4-C5pBBHfxN-ZVGoyHgdD4g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: 
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From: Lei Chang <chang.lei.cn@gmail.com>
To: dev@community.apache.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfcfbc201d76705256dc1da

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I can do the review.

Cheers
Lei Chang


On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY <herve.boutemy@free.fr>
wrote:

> ok, I didn't catch you were not committer
>
> As Ross points out, you'll become committer after earning merit :)
> and before that, you can provide content through CMS without being
> committer:
> did you try?
>
> I can play the committer role and try to get the content and commit after
> you
> submitted it, to check that the process works: I just won't be able to
> really
> review the content :)
> notice that I can check what result I get using an automatic translation
> service: IMHO, this is part of the process that we should try
>
> Do we have a chinese speaking committer who could review the content, wit=
h
> Apache Way in mind to check that what is explained to chinese speaking
> people
> regarding contribution is ok?
>
> Regards,
>
> Herv=C3=A9
>
> Le mercredi 25 novembre 2015 08:21:35 Ted Liu a =C3=A9crit :
> > Yes, that's what we are hoping for. I'd also like to become a committer
> of
> > comdev to review and to be able to edit the content.
>
> > Ted
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:56 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Forming a communit=
y of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > China Community
>
> > yes, that's what I meant: anybody can send patch, a committer must comm=
it
> >
> > for me, "editing" was about publishing, ie requiring commit privilege.
> >
> > but there is a feature I don't really master in CMS for non-committers =
to
> > easily submit patches: I found the doc [1] but never tried it myself.
>  This
> > FAQ entry should probably be one of the first content to be translated =
to
> > crowd-source translation :)
> > notice that if a currently non-committer propose a lot of good centent,
> he
> > could IMHO be  voted to be committer on comdev (ie not on any code TLP,
> but
> > general committer to have the commit bit to the site)
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Herv=C3=A9
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.apa=
che
> .
> >
> org%2fdev%2fcmsref.html%23non-committer&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.=
micro
> > soft.com
> %7c35910a4d30da427a867308d2f56de271%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db
> > 47%7c1&sdata=3DIuaGJ1X%2bE2ffXNN2d22Jcqg0T1mHUVtf8ey5BlCJoB0%3d
>
> > Le mercredi 25 novembre 2015 01:15:31 Ted Liu a =C3=A9crit :
> >
> > > The site content is public. We can get the designated content
> > > translated, by crowdsourcing to the community volunteers here, then
> > > send to a Chinese committer to proofread and edit the site.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Ted
> > > ________________________________
> > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY<mailto:herve.boutemy@=
free.fr>
> > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: =E2=80=8E2015/=E2=80=8E11/=E2=
=80=8E25 8:38
> > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@comm=
unity.apache.org>
> > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Forming a community of Ap=
ache fans in China - Apache China
> > > Community
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don't exactly know what you mean by "crowd-source the tasks to the
> > > OSS community in China": currently, you must be Apache committer to b=
e
> > > able to edit community site Then the first steps to engage people wil=
l
> > > have to come from existing chinese
> >
> >  speaking committers: explaining non-committers how to send a patch
> >
> > > would permit non-committers to help committers improve the content
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Herv=C3=A9
> > >
> > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 16:44:26 Ted Liu a =C3=A9crit :
> > >
> > >
> > > > I can help with these tasks since we, at KAIYUANSHE, have done the
> > > > similar to bring the great OSS governance and licensing content and
> > > > application from OSS-Watch in U.K. to our website by our
> > > > professional translators with Ross' guidance. One question, can we
> > > > crowd-source the tasks to the OSS community in China? Our KAIYUANSH=
E
> > > > members , including myself, can do translation and/or proofreading.
> > > > As said earlier, this would greatly inspire the communities and dev=
s
> > > > here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ted
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY<mailto:herve.boutem=
y@free.fr>
> > > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: =E2=80=8E2015/=E2=80=8E11/=E2=
=80=8E22 0:11
> > > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@co=
mmunity.apache.org>
> > > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China=
 - Apache China
> > > > Community
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > then IMHO some chinese speaking people should start writing a littl=
e
> > > > introduction on
> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dcommunity.apac=
he.
> > > > org&da
> > > > t
> > > > a=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7ca10fa05981994c5cfea30=
8d2
> > > > f28e6
> > > > a29
> > > > %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D54Q9uFYNL%2b9O4ZG4z=
xpn
> > > > XU2tF s6I TD%2fXEQ4SICmtgME%3d, like newcomers [1], newbiefaq [2]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > IIRC, any ASF committer can edit the site
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > once a few pages are available, then they could be referenced from
> > > > classical
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  english site and we can work on creating a chinese-language
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > mailing list
> > > > That's how I see the process, but I won't be able to do anything
> > > > about it, since I don't speak chinese :) (and I don't think there i=
s
> > > > such a strong need for a french equivalent)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Herv=C3=A9
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fcommuni=
t
> > > > y.
> > > > a
> > > > pache.org%2fnewcomers%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft=
.co
> > > > m%7ca
> > > > 10f
> > > > a05981994c5cfea308d2f28e6a29%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=
&
> > > > sdata
> > > > =3Dv0 8GdRcS%2f0tibOnuCAQiba8gjqhHj%2fDsd3A9e7uHATE%3d
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2fcommuni=
t
> > > > y.
> > > > a
> > > > pache.org%2fnewbiefaq.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microso=
ft.
> > > > com%7
> > > > ca1
> > > > 0fa05981994c5cfea308d2f28e6a29%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7=
c
> > > > 1&sda ta=3D kAkFbBrcS9HEDgsEraq1q14FGYjgOlcsqJcg39rwTdc%3d
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 13:53:03 Ted Liu a =C3=A9crit :
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thank Niclas and Herv=C3=A9, It is excited to see the great ideas=
 to
> > > > > start with.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  If needed, we can help crowdsource for contributions in China and
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > it is very likely to excite and attract many talented young peopl=
e
> > > > > to contribute.>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Other than the great content, email list, webpage, etc., we can
> > > > > also help from user experience side, such as pages in Chinese for
> > > > > mobile or a Wechat public account for news, blogs publishing or
> > > > > other services, and social interactions thru Wechat or QQ, such a=
s
> > > > > allowing any Chinese Apache fans to
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  retweet and socialize great articles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because
> > > > > it is used
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > information. This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 PM
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > > > > China Community
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > thinking more about it
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Imagine:
> > > > > - a few localized pages in
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dcommunity.ap=
ach
> > > > > e.org&
> > > > > da
> > > > > t
> > > > > a=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100=
108
> > > > > d2f26a
> > > > > c
> > > > > 9d7
> > > > > %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D%2fZti2MXsNqqO0qu=
W2N
> > > > > RyF45m
> > > > > p
> > > > > fx7 pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d about tooling, culture and so on + mailing
> > > > > list to interact
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  - as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > localized page to  each classical TLP (managed primarily in
> > > > > english) to explain the purpose of the TLP and how they can
> > > > > contact localized
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dcommunity.ap=
ach
> > > > > e.org&
> > > > > da
> > > > > t
> > > > > a=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100=
108
> > > > > d2f26a
> > > > > c
> > > > > 9d7
> > > > > %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D%2fZti2MXsNqqO0qu=
W2N
> > > > > RyF45m
> > > > > p
> > > > > fx7 pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d to get help to interact with the TLP IMHO,
> > > > > it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about
> > > > > putting
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  in every TLP  (starting with
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dwww.apache.o=
rg&
> > > > > data=3D0
> > > > > 1%
> > > > > 7
> > > > > c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26=
a
> > > > > c9d7%7
> > > > > c
> > > > > 72f
> > > > > 988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJY=
n0z
> > > > > U%2fKs
> > > > > X
> > > > > oeT kFfi3ED5k%3d and
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dincubator.ap=
ach
> > > > > e.org&
> > > > > da
> > > > > t
> > > > > a=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100=
108
> > > > > d2f26a
> > > > > c
> > > > > 9d7
> > > > > %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZH=
jEm
> > > > > c7jGf7
> > > > > x
> > > > > oXS RA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d) a localized pointer to localized helpers
> > > > > in community.apache.org.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more
> > > > > translations on some TLPs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Then +1 to creating china@community.apache.org +
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2=
fco
> > > > > mmunit
> > > > > y.
> > > > > a
> > > > > pache.org%2fchina.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft=
.co
> > > > > m%7c37
> > > > > 3
> > > > > 953
> > > > > 5c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=
&
> > > > > sdata=3D
> > > > > O
> > > > > lA9 hXKy5wFT2z%2fPNWm%2f%2fRl%2bLcCLvKxI7DwDoZVYvsE%3d to explain
> > > > > the concept And probably
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f%2=
fco
> > > > > mmunit
> > > > > y.
> > > > > a
> > > > > pache.org
> %2finternational.html&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsof
> > > > > t.
> > > > > c
> > > > > om%
> > > > > 7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011=
d
> > > > > b47%7c
> > > > > 1
> > > > > &sd ata=3Do%2bhr%2b0B77v2nXFdQsAoby8ISqKHYky4i5Sluma9ViyE%3d to
> > > > > point to every localization where this process is started
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Notice: instead of "china" =3D a country name in english, we shou=
ld
> > > > > name it after language: ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choic=
e
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Herv=C3=A9
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a =C3=A9crit :
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is
> > > > > > enough energy for it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the
> > > > > > projects themselves;
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   a.
> > > > > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dwww.apache.org&
> > > > > >   da
> > > > > >   ta
> > > > > >   =3D
> > > > > >   01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2
> > > > > >   f2
> > > > > >   6a
> > > > > >   c9
> > > > > >
>  d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK
> > > > > >   79
> > > > > >   VJ
> > > > > >   Yn
> > > > > >   0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  b.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dincubator.apach
> > > > > >   e.
> > > > > >   or
> > > > > >   g
> > > > > >   &data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c3739535c7a0d4f2310
> > > > > >   01
> > > > > >   08
> > > > > >   d2
> > > > > >
>  f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3DZvN%2ftVv2eI
> > > > > >   Nl
> > > > > >   LZ
> > > > > >   Hj
> > > > > >   Emc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d c.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dcommunity.=
apa
> > > > > > che.or
> > > > > >
> > > > > > g&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d=
4f2
> > > > > > 310010
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D%2fZ=
ti2
> > > > > > MXsNqq
> > > > > >
> > > > > > O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text
> > > > > > format, and should be relatively easy to get going page by page=
,
> > > > > > and I am sure Infrastructure will be able to let us know where
> > > > > > to put it, and link it into the user experience "somehow".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work,
> > > > > > especially since I think peer review is very important, since
> > > > > > language matters for policy and such.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *I* am also very positive to alternate language
> > > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dcommunity.=
apa
> > > > > > che.or
> > > > > >
> > > > > > g&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d=
4f2
> > > > > > 310010
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3D%2fZ=
ti2
> > > > > > MXsNqq
> > > > > >
> > > > > > O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> > > > > > mailing lists. china@community.apache.org could be a start, and
> > > > > > from there it should be possible to gauge the interest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the rest of ComDev; I was added to the WeChat (a Chinese
> > > > > > WhatsApp-like
> > > > > > app) group that is now 360 people. If the chatter there could b=
e
> > > > > > directed to china@community.apache.org, we would possibly have =
a
> > > > > > semi-busy list from the start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Niclas
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, agreed. We can help motivate people, maybe crowdsourcing=
,
> > > > > > > here to help translate. But need to consider what contents an=
d
> > > > > > > a streamline user experience.  Ted
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:00 PM
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China -
> > > > > > > Apache China Community
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Localized content is a great suggestion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Herv=C3=A9 BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr]
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China -
> > > > > > > Apache China Community
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like the idea of doing something to better engage with Chin=
a
> > > > > > > or India or "country of your choice" people interested in Ope=
n
> > > > > > > Source but not able currently because of language and cultura=
l
> > > > > > > barriers for masses
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read
> > > > > > > forming something completely separate, and eventually forming
> > > > > > > a separate
> > > > > > > TLP:
> > > > > > > staying short, I'm not convinced
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What about creating localized content in
> > > > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%=
2f%
> > > > > > > 2fcomm
> > > > > > > un
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > y.
> > > > > > > apache.org%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7=
c3f
> > > > > > > 189780
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > a87344
> > > > > > > cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sda=
t
> > > > > > > a=3D1Rvs
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CGO3%2 fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d , pointing
> > > > > > > to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on
> > > > > > > explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache
> > > > > > > projects and to deal with the fact that Apache projects are
> done
> > > > > > > in english?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because I don't see:
> > > > > > > - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> > > > > > > - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in englis=
h
> > > > > > > (I can say it because I'm not native english: english languag=
e
> > > > > > > is our minimum common convention, and it cost me to learn it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > :) )
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized
> > > > > > > sub-projects (taking the form of content + mailing lists, but
> > > > > > > not code) targeted at helping people work with other TLPs
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Herv=C3=A9
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a =C3=A9crit =
:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ted,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not
> happening.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewher=
e.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What exactly do you want to happen?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What good thing is not happening?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What bad thing is happening?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Niclas,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion
> > > > > > > > > can be formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping.
> > > > > > > > > The ask of forming of a community, group or alike in Chin=
a
> > > > > > > > > comes from the grass-root idea and action because there
> > > > > > > > > are strong demands here.
> > > > > > > > > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructe=
d
> > > > > > > > > or directed. That=E2=80=99s the reason why a group of Chi=
nese ASF
> > > > > > > > > members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., wan=
t
> > > > > > > > > to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by
> > > > > > > > > bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from
> > > > > > > > > ASF. The motivation and enablement of the local
> > > > > > > > > community/group will be mainly from the experienced
> > > > > > > > > Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who
> > > > > > > > > people will trust,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Talking about the language barrier, you should already
> > > > > > > > > know how difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+
> > > > > > > > > years in Shanghai.
> > > > > > > > > One recent example is that literally no one from the
> > > > > > > > > Apache Fans Wechat social group
> > > > > > > > > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English,
> > > > > > > > > to hold a technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status
> > > > > > > > > and the fact of your location in Shanghai do not
> > > > > > > > > automatically translate into trust and effective
> > > > > > > > > communication to enable and motivate people's actions. Th=
e
> > > > > > > > > wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that
> > > > > > > > > younger generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The more challenging part is the culture differences wher=
e
> > > > > > > > > the sense of community, governance, contribution and the
> > > > > > > > > Apache Way are still at infant stage in China. There are
> > > > > > > > > more than enough good codes and events (conferences,
> meetups,
> > > > > > > > > etc.) in China.
>  The
> > > > > > > > > real blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture
> > > > > > > > > where the proposed China community/group can contribute.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ted
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China =
-
> > > > > > > > > Apache China Community
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ted,
> > > > > > > > > 2 things...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and
> 2011.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating
> > > > > > > > > organization. But the ASF and many other open source
> > > > > > > > > projects are not command&control driven top-down
> > > > > > > > > structures. So, there is very little "need" for "creation
> > > > > > > > > of communities". They either form, or they
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > don't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the
> > > > > > > > > Roadshow
> > > > > > > > > in Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the
> somewhat
> > > > > > > > > older generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting
> to
> > > > > > > > > build it like a company, like a government or a religious
> > > > > > > > > organization. I hope that you can appreciate the differen=
ce
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > channel your enthusiasm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > slightly differently.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big
> > > > > > > > > barrier,
> > > > > > > > > but I have first hand witnessed the improvements in onlin=
e
> > > > > > > > > translation services in the past few years. Enormous
> > > > > > > > > improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage where this ca=
n
> be
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > additional tool to bridge this
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > gap.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where
> > > > > > > > > discussion,
> > > > > > > > > hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants=
,
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > the participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache
> doesn't
> > > > > > > > > need to be formally involved in this, but I am sure many
> > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > contributors would be happy to participate, as peers, in
> such
> > > > > > > > > events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin off both
> > > > > > > > > projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other
> > > > > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts,
> > > > > > > > > instead
> > > > > > > > > of single big one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Keep up the positive work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Niclas
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of
> > > > > > > > >> Apache
> > > > > > > > >> fans in China. Would a new China-specific project at the
> > > > > > > > >> ComDev
> > > > > > > > >> be
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > possible?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopte=
d
> in
> > > > > > > > >> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises,
> academic
> > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > >> public
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > services.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> However, there has been little engagement between ASF an=
d
> > > > > > > > >> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE
> > > > > > > > >> (
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dwww.kaiyu
> > > > > > > > >> an
> > > > > > > > >> sh
> > > > > > > > >> e.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> org
> > > > > > > > >> &data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c2300844
> > > > > > > > >> 57
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> b6ef
> > > > > > > > >> 408
> > > > > > > > >>
> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dc9Ihr
> > > > > > > > >> 4C
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> J2iF
> > > > > > > > >> CsX
> > > > > > > > >> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f
> > > > > > > > >> %2
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> fwww
> > > > > > > > >> .ka
> > > > > > > > >> iyuanshe.org&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.=
com
> %7cf
> > > > > > > > >> 7d
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 98c2
> > > > > > > > >> 300
> > > > > > > > >>
> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > > > > > >> &s
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> data =3DKN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>=
,
> the
> > > > > > > > >> first ground-up open source alliance chartered to promot=
e
> > > > > > > > >> open
> > > > > > > > >> source governance and technologies in China and Asia wit=
h
> > > > > > > > >> over
> > > > > > > > >> 50 community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge
> the
> > > > > > > > >> gaps between the leading international OSS communities,
> like
> > > > > > > > >> ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. The last
> > > > > > > > >> Apache
> > > > > > > > >> roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, though=
t
> > > > > > > > >> it'd
> > > > > > > > >> be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another
> > > > > > > > >> roadshow
> > > > > > > > >> in China.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was
> > > > > > > > >> organized
> > > > > > > > >> by KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in
> Beijing
> > > > > > > > >> with ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support,
> i.e.
> > > > > > > > >> Brett Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Far=
r
> > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > >> Jason
> > > > > > > > >> Dai.
> > > > > > > > >> Please see more roadshow details here.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f
> > > > > > > > >> %2
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> fs.a
> > > > > > > > >> pac
> > > > > > > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.=
com
> %7cf
> > > > > > > > >> 7d
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 98c2
> > > > > > > > >> 300
> > > > > > > > >>
> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > > > > > >> &s
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> data
> > > > > > > > >> =3Dm1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f
> > > > > > > > >> %2
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> fs.a
> > > > > > > > >> pac
> > > > > > > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.=
com
> %7c4
> > > > > > > > >> 07
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> aaa4
> > > > > > > > >> b8a
> > > > > > > > >>
> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > > > > > >> &s
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> data =3DBX
> 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> > > > > > > > >> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2
> > > > > > > > >> f%
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 2ftw
> > > > > > > > >> itt
> > > > > > > > >> er.com
> %2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=3D01%7c01%7c
> > > > > > > > >> te
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> dl%4
> > > > > > > > >> 006
> > > > > > > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f
> > > > > > > > >> 98
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 8bf8
> > > > > > > > >> 6f1
> > > > > > > > >>
> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dqdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09
> > > > > > > > >> ik
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> WU37
> > > > > > > > >> CWt
> > > > > > > > >> EOXwqg%3d<
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3a%2
> > > > > > > > >> f%
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 2ftw
> > > > > > > > >> itt
> > > > > > > > >> er.com
> %2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=3D01%7c01%7c
> > > > > > > > >> te
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> dl%4
> > > > > > > > >> 006
> > > > > > > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f
> > > > > > > > >> 98
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 8bf8
> > > > > > > > >> 6f1
> > > > > > > > >>
> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3Dl6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHp
> > > > > > > > >> dC
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 7CWh
> > > > > > > > >> dX0
> > > > > > > > >> GFRwPs%3d
> > > > > > > > >> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and
> > > > > > > > >> archives)
> > > > > > > > >> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> > > > > > > > >> -
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f
> > > > > > > > >> %2
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> fapa
> > > > > > > > >> che
> > > > > > > > >> .org%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c
> > > > > > > > >> 23
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 0084
> > > > > > > > >> 457
> > > > > > > > >>
> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> > > > > > > > >> a=3D
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> eH1M 4gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> > > > > > > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3a%2f
> > > > > > > > >> %2
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> fapa
> > > > > > > > >> che
> > > > > > > > >> .org%2f&data=3D01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c407aaa
> > > > > > > > >> 4b
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> 8a31
> > > > > > > > >> 4f8
> > > > > > > > >>
> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> > > > > > > > >> a=3D
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> F1Dd EAF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> > > > > > > > >> home page
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests
> to
> > > > > > > > >> form a China community to keep engaging with 5000+
> audience
> > > > > > > > >> who
> > > > > > > > >> attended this roadshow and tens of thousands people who
> did
> > > > > > > > >> not
> > > > > > > > >> have time or were unaware of the events. So far, there
> > > > > > > > >> already
> > > > > > > > >> are many volunteers, including Apache members, PMC
> members,
> > > > > > > > >> committers, contributors, developers and users, who are
> > > > > > > > >> willing
> > > > > > > > >> to join the China community steering committee and worki=
ng
> > > > > > > > >> groups to help grow the talents, projects and community =
in
> > > > > > > > >> China and bridge between ASF and the fans in China
> following
> > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > >> Apache way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of
> Apache
> > > > > > > > >> fans in China or how to form a new China-specific projec=
t
> at
> > > > > > > > >> the ComDev would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Ted Liu
> > > > > > > > >> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China
> Co-founding
> > > > > > > > >> member of KAIYUANSHE
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>

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