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From Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:30:23 GMT

I was a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for contribution. 

The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the use of English to allow as wide
a participation as possible. 

What do you think about creating a parallel organization that uses chinese in the same way
that apache uses English?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:22, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> 
> Lei, Thanks. Ted
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei.cn@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:17 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
> 
> +1 for a formal community project in China.
> 
> There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China are developing
the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).
> 
> A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active at ask questions
and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to happen with some Chinese native
guys discussing in English. There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China,
and i think there is a great potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache
community in China.
> 
> Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get together, discuss,
directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very helpful to have a formal Apache
community project set up to work on this.
> 
> Cheers
> Lei
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Niclas,
>> 
>> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed 
>> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a 
>> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and 
>> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would 
>> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why 
>> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
>> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by 
>> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
>> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly 
>> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, 
>> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>> 
>> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
>> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
>> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
>> Wechat social group
>> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
>> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
>> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
>> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
>> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
>> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>> 
>> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
>> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at 
>> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
>> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
>> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
>> community/group can contribute.
>> 
>> 
>> Ted
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
>> China Community
>> 
>> Ted,
>> 2 things...
>> 
>> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>> 
>> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. 
>> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
>> command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is very little 
>> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>> 
>> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
>> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
>> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a 
>> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that 
>> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.
>> 
>> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I 
>> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
>> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are 
>> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>> 
>> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
>> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the 
>> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be 
>> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors 
>> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I 
>> am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF
and other projects.
>> 
>> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of 
>> single big one.
>> 
>> Keep up the positive work.
>> 
>> Niclas
>> 
>>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
>>> 
>>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans 
>>> in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
>>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
>>> 
>>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China, 
>>> such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public services.
>>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and 
>>> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
>>> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe.o
>>> rg
>>> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef4
>>> 08 
>>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2iFC
>>> sX
>>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.
>>> ka
>>> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
>>> 00 
>>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=
>>> KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first 
>>> ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open source 
>>> governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 50 community 
>>> and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the gaps between the 
>>> leading international
>> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. 
>> The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, 
>> thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another roadshow in China.
>>> 
>>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by 
>>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with ASF's 
>>> community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett Porter, 
>>> David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. Please 
>>> see more roadshow details here.
>>> 
>>> - ASF "Foundation" blog
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.ap
>>> ac
>>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
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>>> - @TheASF Twitter feed
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ftwi
>>> tt
>>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40
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>>> X0
>>> GFRwPs%3d
>>> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
>>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
>>> -
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapac
>>> he
>>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c2300844
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>>> home page
>>> 
>>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a 
>>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended 
>>> this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time or 
>>> were unaware of the events. So far, there already are many 
>>> volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, committers, 
>>> contributors, developers and users, who are willing to join the 
>>> China community steering committee and working groups to help grow 
>>> the talents, projects and community in China and bridge between ASF 
>>> and the fans in
>> China following the Apache way.
>>> 
>>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans in 
>>> China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev 
>>> would be greatly appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Ted Liu
>>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding member 
>>> of KAIYUANSHE
>> 

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