community-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:49:36 GMT
Thanks Ted for your so nice words, we can't make it without ASF and mentors
here.
We learnt a lot during the incubating and daily work.

The Apache Roadshow is great event and Kaiyunshe did great job, would love
to see more contribution like localization and more events soon:)




Best Regards!
---------------------

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Hi Luke, Apache Kylin is a hero project to me and many Chinese developers.
> In my humble opinion "Elite" is not just about efforts and achievements,
> but also capabilities, including project management and communication
> skills, esp. using English. Anyhow, choosing proper English wording to
> avoid misunderstanding remains a big challenge to me. But I learned one
> this time. :-)
>
>
> Ted
> ________________________________
> 发件人: Luke Han<mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com>
> 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:39
> 收件人: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> 抄送: niclas@hedhman.org<mailto:niclas@hedhman.org>
> 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> Hi Ted L,
>     I don't think "elites" is good idea here:) we just work very hard to
> learn the Apache Way, to engage world wide community and develop our
> project for people really need. Many efforts have been spent in spare time
> from our committers with their passion and willing to contribution, and the
> same thing could be found from other community especially in Spark one,
> there are many people from here who are better than us:)
>
>
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was
> > a mentor on kylin and worried about English being a problem for
> > contribution. The real problem is that apache is partially defined by the
> > use of English to allow as wide a participation as possible."
> >
> > I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication
> > effectively. It is just that it is still minority of such elites in China
> > dev community so far and that's the reason why Chinese document for Kylin
> > is still needed.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Luke Han [mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > Community
> >
> > >>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> > >>incubation
> > project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from
> both
> > side due to language issues
> >
> > I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning
> > and I have discussed in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese
> > developers are not native English speakers but what we have demonstrated
> in
> > Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration together,
> language
> > is not a problem.
> >
> > People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring
> > problem to form "official localized community" eventfully, they will try
> to
> > stay within local community. We should engage and bring local developers,
> > projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world.
> >
> > There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question
> there
> > we will re-direct them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have
> such
> > discussion, even we have to help to translate to English. And the result
> is
> > good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local who are participating
> in
> > the community very well, in English.
> >
> > Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as
> > contribution with relative project, we could saw there are some Chinese
> > docs of HBase, most of Kylin's docs now have both English and Chinese...
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > ---------------------
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of
> > > "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more
> > > devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the
> > > West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both
> > > internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome
> > > language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and
> > > projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use
> > > the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF
> > > doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd
> > > probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark.
> > >
> > > Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by
> > > experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers,
> > > contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may
> > > be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework,
> > > community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel
> > assistance...), etc.
> > >
> > > I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin
> > > incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the
> > > frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe
> > not-so-obvious culture difference).
> > > Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache
> > > Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even
> > > though there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the
> > > pains and misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
> > >
> > > Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much
> > > heavier weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc.
> > > over the Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization
> > > priority is obvious.
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > > China Community
> > >
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > I think apache can help you with some needs, but not all.  Apache is
> > > enthusiastic about helping people interact with our English-centric
> > > mailing lists.  Apache would likely help you figure out how to set up
> > > Chinese language open source projects as well.
> > >
> > > I don't understand if that is what you want.  You say "within apache".
> > > But I also thought you wanted to help developers who don't have enough
> > English.
> > >
> > > It sounds like you need more than one answer to more than one question.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 19:24, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Our initiative wants/desires to be inside of ASF as close as
> > > > possible
> > > and to avoid any trademark violation. If it is a no-go, I guess the
> > > volunteer group here will still do the right things to help enable and
> > > motivate developers and projects, with or without ASF’s
> trademark/banner.
> > > >
> > > > Ted
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:46 PM
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > > > China Community
> > > >
> > > > Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If
> > > they do need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on
> > it?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei.cn@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > > > China Community
> > > >
> > > > +1 for a formal community project in China.
> > > >
> > > > There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers
> > > > in
> > > China are developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).
> > > >
> > > > A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very
> > > active at ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very
> > > difficult to happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in
> English.
> > > There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i
> > > think there is a great potential to increase the number of
> > > contributors from Apache community in China.
> > > >
> > > > Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get
> > > together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It
> > > would be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up
> > > to work on this.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Lei
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Niclas,
> > > >>
> > > >> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be
> > > >> formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of
> > > >> forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the
> > > >> grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here.
> > > >> Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or
> > > >> directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members,
PMC
> > > >> members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together
> > > >> voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese
> > > >> talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and
> > > >> enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the
> > > >> experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who
> > > >> people will trust, instead of any individual new to
> > > ASF.
> > > >>
> > > >> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how
> > > >> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> > > >> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans
> > > >> Wechat social group
> > > >> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a
> > > >> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your
> > > >> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and
> > > >> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions.
> > > >> The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger
> > > >> generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > > >>
> > > >> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the
> > > >> sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are
> > > >> still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good
> > > >> codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real
> > > >> blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed
> > > >> China community/group can contribute.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Ted
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > >> To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > >> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache
> > > >> China Community
> > > >>
> > > >> Ted,
> > > >> 2 things...
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating
> organization.
> > > >> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not
> > > >> command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is very
> > > >> little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or
> > they don't.
> > > >>
> > > >> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in
> > > >> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older
> > > >> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it
> > > >> like a company, like a government or a religious organization. I
> > > >> hope that you can appreciate the difference and channel your
> > > >> enthusiasm slightly
> > > differently.
> > > >>
> > > >> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but
> > > >> I have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation
> > > >> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we
> > > >> are soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge
> > this gap.
> > > >>
> > > >> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion,
> > > >> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the
> > > >> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be
> > > >> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors
> > > >> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And
> > > >> I am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect
> > > contribution to ASF and other projects.
> > > >>
> > > >> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of
> > > >> single big one.
> > > >>
> > > >> Keep up the positive work.
> > > >>
> > > >> Niclas
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache
fans
> > > >>> in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be
> > possible?
> > > >>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in
> > > >>> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and
> > > >>> public
> > > services.
> > > >>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and
> > > >>> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE
> > > >>> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe
> > > >>> .o
> > > >>> rg
> > > >>> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6e
> > > >>> f4
> > > >>> 08
> > > >>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2i
> > > >>> FC
> > > >>> sX
> > > >>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
> > > >>>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.
> > > >>> ka
> > > >>> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c
> > > >>> 23
> > > >>> 00
> > > >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> > > >>> a= KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first
> > > >>> ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open source
> > > >>> governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 50
> > > >>> community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the gaps
> > > >>> between the leading international
> > > >> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China.
> > > >> The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE,
> > > >> thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another
> > > roadshow in China.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized
by
> > > >>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with
> > > >>> ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett
> > > >>> Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason
Dai.
> > > >>> Please see more roadshow details here.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.
> > > >>> ap
> > > >>> ac
> > > >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c
> > > >>> 23
> > > >>> 00
> > > >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> > > >>> a=
> > > >>> m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.
> > > >>> ap
> > > >>> ac
> > > >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa
> > > >>> 4b
> > > >>> 8a
> > > >>> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> > > >>> a= BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> > > >>> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft
> > > >>> wi
> > > >>> tt
> > > >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%
> > > >>> 40
> > > >>> 06
> > > >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf
> > > >>> 86
> > > >>> f1
> > > >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU3
> > > >>> 7C
> > > >>> Wt
> > > >>> EOXwqg%3d<
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft
> > > >>> wi
> > > >>> tt
> > > >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%
> > > >>> 40
> > > >>> 06
> > > >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf
> > > >>> 86
> > > >>> f1
> > > >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CW
> > > >>> hd
> > > >>> X0
> > > >>> GFRwPs%3d
> > > >>> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
> > > >>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> > > >>> -
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap
> > > >>> ac
> > > >>> he
> > > >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23008
> > > >>> 44
> > > >>> 57
> > > >>> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1
> > > >>> M4 gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> > > >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap
> > > >>> ac
> > > >>> he
> > > >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a3
> > > >>> 14
> > > >>> f8
> > > >>> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1D
> > > >>> dE AF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> > > >>> home page
> > > >>>
> > > >>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form
a
> > > >>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended
> > > >>> this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time
> > > >>> or were unaware of the events. So far, there already are many
> > > >>> volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, committers,
> > > >>> contributors, developers and users, who are willing to join the
> > > >>> China community steering committee and working groups to help
grow
> > > >>> the talents, projects and community in China and bridge between
> > > >>> ASF and the fans in
> > > >> China following the Apache way.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans
> > > >>> in China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev
> > > >>> would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ted Liu
> > > >>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding
> > > >>> member of KAIYUANSHE
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message