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From William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
Subject Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sun, 22 Nov 2015 03:06:08 GMT
That was my reaction.  A dev-cn@community.apache. org could be a useful
discussion vehicle to engage prospects and help with facilitating that
engagement.  It wouldn't look all that much different than the usual
English Q&A here on dev@c a o.

Expecting an interested contributor to rely solely on machine based
translation (which is horrid when it comes to SVO vs SOV and other
orderings) when posting to an English mailing list isn't realistic.
Engaging them to offer code patches, translations and other sorts of
engagement does seem to fall under the remit of the community pmc, no?
On Nov 21, 2015 04:58, "Hervé BOUTEMY" <herve.boutemy@free.fr> wrote:

> I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or
> "country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able
> currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses
>
> But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming
> something
> completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short,
> I'm
> not convinced
>
> What about creating localized content in http://community.apache.org/ ,
> pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on
> explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to
> deal
> with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?
>
> Because I don't see:
> - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say
> it
> because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common
> convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )
>
> But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects
> (taking
> the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping
> people
> work with other TLPs
>
> WDYT?
>
> Regards,
>
> Hervé
>
> Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> > Ted,
> >
> > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> >
> > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> >
> > What exactly do you want to happen?
> >
> > What good thing is not happening?
> >
> > What bad thing is happening?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Niclas,
> > >
> > > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed
> at
> > > ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a
> > > community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and
> > > action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would
> care
> > > and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a
> group
> > > of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc.,
> want
> > > to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the
> > > Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and
> > > enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the
> > > experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who
> people
> > > will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > >
> > > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how
> difficult
> > > it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent
> > > example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social
> group
> > > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a
> > > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your
> > > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and
> > > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The
> wait
> > > of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger generation
> > > contributors would not tolerate.
> > >
> > > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of
> > > community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at
> > > infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events
> > > (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language
> and
> > > non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can
> > > contribute.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> > > Community
> > >
> > > Ted,
> > > 2 things...
> > >
> > > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > >
> > > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization.
> But
> > > the ASF and many other open source projects are not command&control
> > > driven top-down structures. So, there is very little "need" for
> "creation
> > > of communities". They either form, or they don't.
> > >
> > > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in
> Beijing
> > > grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older generation had
> a
> > > more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a company, like a
> > > government or a religious organization. I hope that you can appreciate
> > > the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.
> > >
> > > Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I
> have
> > > first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation services in
> > > the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a
> stage
> > > where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
> > >
> > > My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion,
> hacking,
> > > presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the
> participants, a
> > > peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be formally involved
> in
> > > this, but I am sure many Apache contributors would be happy to
> > > participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I am convinced this
> will
> > > spin off both projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other
> > > projects.
> > >
> > > Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of
> single
> > > big one.
> > >
> > > Keep up the positive work.
> > >
> > > Niclas
> > >
> > >> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> > >>
> > >> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans in
> > >> China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
> > >> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> > >>
> > >> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China,
> > >> such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public
> services.
> > >> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and communities
> > >> and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE
> > >> (
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe.org
> > >> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408
> > >> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2iFCsX
> > >> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ka
> > >> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c2300
> > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=KN
> > >> IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first ground-up
> > >> open source alliance chartered to promote open source governance and
> > >> technologies in China and Asia with over 50 community and enterprise
> > >> members now) wish to bridge the gaps between the leading international
> > >> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China.
> The
> > >> last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, thought
> > >> it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another roadshow in
> > >> China.
> > >>
> > >> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by
> > >> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with ASF's
> > >> community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett Porter, David
> > >> Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. Please see more
> > >> roadshow details here.
> > >>
> > >> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apac
> > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c2300
> > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=m1
> > >> ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apac
> > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c407aaa4b8a
> > >> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=BX
> > >> 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> > >> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ftwitt
> > >> er.com
> %2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%4006
> > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f1
> > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU37CWt
> > >> EOXwqg%3d<
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ftwitt
> > >> er.com
> %2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%4006
> > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f1
> > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CWhdX0
> > >> GFRwPs%3d
> > >> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
> > >> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> > >> -
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapache
> > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7cf7d98c230084457
> > >> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1M4gu
> > >> 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapache
> > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com
> %7c407aaa4b8a314f8
> > >> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1DdEAF
> > >> N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> > >> home page
> > >>
> > >> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a
> > >> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended this
> > >> roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time or were
> > >> unaware of the events. So far, there already are many volunteers,
> > >> including Apache members, PMC members, committers, contributors,
> > >> developers and users, who are willing to join the China community
> > >> steering committee and working groups to help grow the talents,
> > >> projects and community in China and bridge between ASF and the fans in
> > >> China following the Apache way.
> > >>
> > >> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans in
> > >> China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev would
> > >> be greatly appreciated.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ted Liu
> > >> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding member of
> > >> KAIYUANSHE
>
>

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