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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:43:56 GMT
"The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of community, governance,
contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant stage in China." I agree. This was my
conclusion when you kindly facilitated my trip to China earlier this year. It is that trip
that motivated me to focus on diversity and knowledge exchange in my State of the Feather
session at ApacheCon NA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UkQBOvVhfw around 17 minutes for
diversity in general, 27:50 for geographic diversity)

As a result of that trip you and I cooked up the idea of an Apache Event in China. You made
that happen with a little help from myself and a bunch of other ASF folks as you note below.
Moments ago I sent you details of the just opened ApacheCon CFP and gave you my personal assurance
that any Chinese folks who get talks accepted will have my help in connecting with ASF people
and mentors where they are available.

I want to share some of that mail here for others to comment on:

Communities are not “formed” through the creation of such organizations. Communities just
happen when two things align. 1) there is a common goal - writing the code to solve a problem
in the case of the ASF and 2) there are people who facilitate and motivate in order to bring
people together around the common goal. 

I hear you saying that there are “Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors”
who want this. Then they should just do it. Those are the people who should know how to do
it and they should just get on with it and do it – in an Apache style – by writing code
and facilitating and enabling project communities around that code.

There really is no magic formula. There are set of experiences that need to be shared so that
optimal decisions can be made. What people desire is a magic formula called The Apache Way.
I’m sorry to say there is no formula and therefore creating a top down structure to manage
the spread of this magic formula will do more to kill it than enable it.

What concerns me about this proposal is that it wants to create a China specific Apache body
because "the sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at
infant stage in China". So if it is at infant stage who is to help guide this infant to maturity?
How does the ASF provide guidance to this infant?

I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you and your Chinese
colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like those that I talked about at ApacheCon
and you have facilitated.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Liu [mailto:tedl@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 1:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org; niclas@hedhman.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

Hi Niclas, 

It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at ASF instead of labeling
or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the
grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would care
and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF
members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together voluntarily to
change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation
and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the experienced Chinese ASF
members, committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of any individual new
to ASF.

Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult it is to learn Chinese
after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache
Fans Wechat social group (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold
a technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your location in Shanghai
do not automatically translate into trust and effective communication to enable and motivate
people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger generation
contributors would not tolerate.

The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of community, governance,
contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough
good codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language
and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can contribute.


Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

Ted,
2 things...

1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.

2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But the ASF and many
other open source projects are not command&control driven top-down structures. So, there
is very little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.

I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in Beijing grasped that idea
very well, whereas the somewhat older generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting
to build it like a company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that you
can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.

Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I have first hand witnessed
the improvements in online translation services in the past few years. Enormous improvement.
Perhaps we are soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.

My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, hacking, presentations are
conducted, by the participants, for the participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't
need to be formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors would be happy
to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin off both
projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other projects.

Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of single big one.

Keep up the positive work.

Niclas

On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
>
> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans in 
> China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
>
> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China, 
> such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public services.
> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and communities 
> and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe.org
> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408
> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2iFCsX
> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ka
> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c2300
> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=KN
> IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first ground-up 
> open source alliance chartered to promote open source governance and 
> technologies in China and Asia with over 50 community and enterprise 
> members now) wish to bridge the gaps between the leading international OSS communities,
like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in
Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another
roadshow in China.
>
> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by 
> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with ASF's 
> community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett Porter, David 
> Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. Please see more 
> roadshow details here.
>
> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apac
> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c2300
> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=m1
> ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apac
> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a
> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=BX
> 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> >
> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ftwitt
> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%4006
> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f1
> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU37CWt
> EOXwqg%3d<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ftwitt
> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%4006
> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f1
> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CWhdX0
> GFRwPs%3d
> >
> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> -
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapache
> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457
> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1M4gu
> 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapache
> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f8
> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1DdEAF
> N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> home page
>
> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a 
> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended this 
> roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time or were 
> unaware of the events. So far, there already are many volunteers, 
> including Apache members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
> developers and users, who are willing to join the China community 
> steering committee and working groups to help grow the talents, 
> projects and community in China and bridge between ASF and the fans in China following
the Apache way.
>
> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans in 
> China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev would 
> be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Ted Liu
> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding member of 
> KAIYUANSHE
>
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