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From Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 13:53:03 GMT
Thank Niclas and Hervé, It is excited to see the great ideas to start with. If needed, we
can help crowdsource for contributions in China and it is very likely to excite and attract
many talented young people to contribute. 

Other than the great content, email list, webpage, etc., we can also help from user experience
side, such as pages in Chinese for mobile or a Wechat public account for news, blogs publishing
or other services, and social interactions thru Wechat or QQ, such as allowing any Chinese
Apache fans to retweet and socialize great articles. 

p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is used by 500M Wechat
chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information. This is a very effective China-specific
scenario.


-----Original Message-----
From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

thinking more about it

Imagine:
- a few localized pages in https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
about tooling, culture and so on + mailing list to interact
- as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little localized page to  each
classical TLP (managed primarily in english) to explain the purpose of the TLP and how they
can contact localized https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
to get help to interact with the TLP

IMHO, it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about putting in every TLP
 (starting with https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
and https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d)
a localized pointer to localized helpers in community.apache.org.

Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more translations on some TLPs.

Then +1 to creating china@community.apache.org + https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fchina.html&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=OlA9hXKy5wFT2z%2fPNWm%2f%2fRl%2bLcCLvKxI7DwDoZVYvsE%3d
to explain the concept And probably https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2finternational.html&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=o%2bhr%2b0B77v2nXFdQsAoby8ISqKHYky4i5Sluma9ViyE%3d
to point to every localization where this process is started

Notice: instead of "china" = a country name in english, we should name it after language:
ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choice

IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is enough 
> energy for it.
> 
> There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the 
> projects themselves;
>   a. https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
>   b. https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d
>   c. 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.or
> g&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2310010
> 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqq
> O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> 
> As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text format, 
> and should be relatively easy to get going page by page, and I am sure 
> Infrastructure will be able to let us know where to put it, and link 
> it into the user experience "somehow".
> 
> That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work, 
> especially since I think peer review is very important, since language 
> matters for policy and such.
> 
> *I* am also very positive to alternate language 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.or
> g&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2310010
> 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqq
> O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> mailing lists. china@community.apache.org could be a start, and from 
> there it should be possible to gauge the interest.
> 
> For the rest of ComDev; I was added to the WeChat (a Chinese 
> WhatsApp-like
> app) group that is now 360 people. If the chatter there could be 
> directed to china@community.apache.org, we would possibly have a 
> semi-busy list from the start.
> 
> 
> Niclas
> 
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > Yes, agreed. We can help motivate people, maybe crowdsourcing, here 
> > to help translate. But need to consider what contents and a 
> > streamline user experience.  Ted
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:00 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> > 
> > Localized content is a great suggestion.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> > 
> > I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or 
> > India or "country of your choice" people interested in Open Source 
> > but not able currently because of language and cultural barriers for 
> > masses
> > 
> > But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming 
> > something completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP:
> > staying short, I'm not convinced
> > 
> > What about creating localized content in 
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.
> > apache.org%2f&data=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780
> > a87344
> > cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1Rvs
> > CGO3%2 fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d , pointing to 
> > dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on explaining 
> > community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
> > with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?
> > 
> > Because I don't see:
> > - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> > - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I 
> > can say it because I'm not native english: english language is our 
> > minimum common convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )
> > 
> > But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects 
> > (taking the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted 
> > at helping people work with other TLPs
> > 
> > WDYT?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Hervé
> > 
> > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> > > Ted,
> > > 
> > > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> > > 
> > > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> > > 
> > > What exactly do you want to happen?
> > > 
> > > What good thing is not happening?
> > > 
> > > What bad thing is happening?
> > > 
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > 
> > > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Niclas,
> > > > 
> > > > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> > > > formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> > > > forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> > > > grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here.
> > > > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> > > > directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, 
> > > > PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work 
> > > > together voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the 
> > > > Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation 
> > > > and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from 
> > > > the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and 
> > > > contributors, who people will trust,
> > 
> > instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > 
> > > > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> > > > difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> > > > One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> > > > Wechat social group
> > > > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold 
> > > > a technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of 
> > > > your location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into 
> > > > trust and effective communication to enable and motivate 
> > > > people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an 
> > > > unknown that younger generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > > > 
> > > > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the 
> > > > sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way 
> > > > are still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough 
> > > > good codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The 
> > > > real blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture where the 
> > > > proposed China community/group can contribute.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Ted
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - 
> > > > Apache China Community
> > > > 
> > > > Ted,
> > > > 2 things...
> > > > 
> > > > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > > > 
> > > > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating 
> > > > organization. But the ASF and many other open source projects 
> > > > are not command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is 
> > > > very little "need" for "creation of communities". They either 
> > > > form, or they
> > 
> > don't.
> > 
> > > > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow 
> > > > in Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat 
> > > > older generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to 
> > > > build it like a company, like a government or a religious 
> > > > organization. I hope that you can appreciate the difference and 
> > > > channel your enthusiasm
> > 
> > slightly differently.
> > 
> > > > Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, 
> > > > but I have first hand witnessed the improvements in online 
> > > > translation services in the past few years. Enormous 
> > > > improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage where this can be an 
> > > > additional tool to bridge this
> > 
> > gap.
> > 
> > > > My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> > > > hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for 
> > > > the participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't 
> > > > need to be formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache 
> > > > contributors would be happy to participate, as peers, in such 
> > > > events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin off both 
> > > > projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other projects.
> > > > 
> > > > Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead 
> > > > of single big one.
> > > > 
> > > > Keep up the positive work.
> > > > 
> > > > Niclas
> > > > 
> > > >> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > >> 
> > > >> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> > > >> 
> > > >> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache 
> > > >> fans in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev 
> > > >> be
> > 
> > possible?
> > 
> > > >> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in 
> > > >> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and 
> > > >> public
> > 
> > services.
> > 
> > > >> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and 
> > > >> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
> > > >> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe.
> > > >> org
> > > >> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457
> > > >> b6ef
> > > >> 408
> > > >> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4C
> > > >> J2iF
> > > >> CsX
> > > >> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d< 
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > >> fwww
> > > >> .ka
> > > >> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d
> > > >> 98c2
> > > >> 300
> > > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > >> data =KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the 
> > > >> first ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open 
> > > >> source governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 
> > > >> 50 community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the 
> > > >> gaps between the leading international OSS communities, like 
> > > >> ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. The last Apache 
> > > >> roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, thought it'd 
> > > >> be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another roadshow 
> > > >> in China.
> > > >> 
> > > >> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized 
> > > >> by KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing 
> > > >> with ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. 
> > > >> Brett Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason
Dai.
> > > >> Please see more roadshow details here.
> > > >> 
> > > >> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > >> fs.a
> > > >> pac
> > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d
> > > >> 98c2
> > > >> 300
> > > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > >> data
> > > >> =m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > >> fs.a
> > > >> pac
> > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407
> > > >> aaa4
> > > >> b8a
> > > >> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > >> data =BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> > > >> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%
> > > >> 2ftw
> > > >> itt
> > > >> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7cte
> > > >> dl%4
> > > >> 006
> > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f98
> > > >> 8bf8
> > > >> 6f1
> > > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ik
> > > >> WU37
> > > >> CWt
> > > >> EOXwqg%3d<
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%
> > > >> 2ftw
> > > >> itt
> > > >> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7cte
> > > >> dl%4
> > > >> 006
> > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f98
> > > >> 8bf8
> > > >> 6f1
> > > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC
> > > >> 7CWh
> > > >> dX0
> > > >> GFRwPs%3d
> > > >> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and 
> > > >> archives)
> > > >> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> > > >> -
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > >> fapa
> > > >> che
> > > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
> > > >> 0084
> > > >> 457
> > > >> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=
> > > >> eH1M 4gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > >> fapa
> > > >> che
> > > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b
> > > >> 8a31
> > > >> 4f8
> > > >> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=
> > > >> F1Dd EAF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> > > >> home page
> > > >> 
> > > >> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to 
> > > >> form a China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who 
> > > >> attended this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not 
> > > >> have time or were unaware of the events. So far, there already 
> > > >> are many volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, 
> > > >> committers, contributors, developers and users, who are willing 
> > > >> to join the China community steering committee and working 
> > > >> groups to help grow the talents, projects and community in 
> > > >> China and bridge between ASF and the fans in China following the Apache
way.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache 
> > > >> fans in China or how to form a new China-specific project at 
> > > >> the ComDev would be greatly appreciated.
> > > >> 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Ted Liu
> > > >> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding 
> > > >> member of KAIYUANSHE

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