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From Ted Liu <t...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 14:18:29 GMT
My apologies if misunderstood from Ted Dunning's earlier comment: " I was a mentor on kylin
and worried about English being a problem for contribution. The real problem is that apache
is partially defined by the use of English to allow as wide a participation as possible."

I trust Luke and his team are very capable of English communication effectively. It is just
that it is still minority of such elites in China dev community so far and that's the reason
why Chinese document for Kylin is still needed.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Han [mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 10:08 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

>>I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin 
>>incubation
project and trust that you were also >>aware of the frustrations from both side due
to language issues

I don't this is true...Language is a little bit challenge as Ted Dunning and I have discussed
in London and San Jose many times, yes, the Chinese developers are not native English speakers
but what we have demonstrated in Kylin community is both sides are happy to collaboration
together, language is not a problem.

People intend to discuss with their native language which will bring problem to form "official
localized community" eventfully, they will try to stay within local community. We should engage
and bring local developers, projects to ASF, not only Chinese and all of the world.

There's WeChat group for Kylin but every time people raised question there we will re-direct
them to mailing list, to keep only one place to have such discussion, even we have to help
to translate to English. And the result is good (IMO), we engaged many committers from local
who are participating in the community very well, in English.

Localization is one good idea, which also should be counted as contribution with relative
project, we could saw there are some Chinese docs of HBase, most of Kylin's docs now have
both English and Chinese...


Best Regards!
---------------------

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Hi Ted, Yes, we want to establish a bridge or a group (if the idea of 
> "China Community" seemed to be intimidating or crazy) to help more 
> devs become contributors and committers to popular projects from the 
> West and to help incubate more Chinese projects to become popular both 
> internationally and domestically. It aims to be a bridge to overcome 
> language barriers and culture differences so that more talents and 
> projects can exchange. We certainly hope this bridge or group can use 
> the Apache name, at least in Chinese 阿帕奇, but not really a MUST if ASF 
> doesn’t support the idea or treat it as a beast. In this case, we'd 
> probably do it with another name not violating ASF trademark.
>
> Our idea is to set up a few working groups moderated, mentored by 
> experienced Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, 
> contributors, etc. to achieve the above goals. The working groups may 
> be ranging from big data, cloud computing, dev language/framework, 
> community development (including events, meetups, localization, travel assistance...),
etc.
>
> I'm so glad to hear that you were the mentor of Apache Kylin 
> incubation project and trust that you were also aware of the 
> frustrations from both side due to language issues (and maybe not-so-obvious culture
difference).
> Another example is Ali JStorm as an incubation project to the Apache 
> Storm project. Both side probably felt frustrated along the way. Even 
> though there are more English-capable IT people in China nowadays, the 
> pains and misunderstandings of using non-native languages still exist.
>
> Due to the much bigger user and dev base in China, I'd put much 
> heavier weigh on hot projects from the West, e.g. Spark, Hadoop, etc. 
> over the Chinese-originated projects like Kylin. So the localization 
> priority is obvious.
>
> Ted
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:33 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
>
> Ted
>
> I think apache can help you with some needs, but not all.  Apache is 
> enthusiastic about helping people interact with our English-centric 
> mailing lists.  Apache would likely help you figure out how to set up 
> Chinese language open source projects as well.
>
> I don't understand if that is what you want.  You say "within apache". 
> But I also thought you wanted to help developers who don't have enough English.
>
> It sounds like you need more than one answer to more than one question.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 19:24, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > Our initiative wants/desires to be inside of ASF as close as 
> > possible
> and to avoid any trademark violation. If it is a no-go, I guess the 
> volunteer group here will still do the right things to help enable and 
> motivate developers and projects, with or without ASF’s trademark/banner.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 6:46 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> >
> > Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If
> they do need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on it?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei.cn@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Cc: niclas@hedhman.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> >
> > +1 for a formal community project in China.
> >
> > There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers 
> > in
> China are developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).
> >
> > A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very
> active at ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very 
> difficult to happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English.
> There are about 5 million college graduates each year in China, and i 
> think there is a great potential to increase the number of 
> contributors from Apache community in China.
> >
> > Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get
> together, discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It 
> would be very helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up 
> to work on this.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Lei
> >
> >
> >> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Niclas,
> >>
> >> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> >> formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> >> forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> >> grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. 
> >> Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> >> directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC 
> >> members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together 
> >> voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese 
> >> talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and 
> >> enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the 
> >> experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who 
> >> people will trust, instead of any individual new to
> ASF.
> >>
> >> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> >> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> >> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> >> Wechat social group
> >> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> >> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> >> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> >> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. 
> >> The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> >> generation contributors would not tolerate.
> >>
> >> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the 
> >> sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are 
> >> still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good 
> >> codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real 
> >> blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed 
> >> China community/group can contribute.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> >> China Community
> >>
> >> Ted,
> >> 2 things...
> >>
> >> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> >>
> >> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization.
> >> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
> >> command&control driven top-down structures. So, there is very 
> >> little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
> >>
> >> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> >> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> >> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it 
> >> like a company, like a government or a religious organization. I 
> >> hope that you can appreciate the difference and channel your 
> >> enthusiasm slightly
> differently.
> >>
> >> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but 
> >> I have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
> >> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we 
> >> are soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
> >>
> >> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> >> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the 
> >> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be 
> >> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors 
> >> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And 
> >> I am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect
> contribution to ASF and other projects.
> >>
> >> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of 
> >> single big one.
> >>
> >> Keep up the positive work.
> >>
> >> Niclas
> >>
> >>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> >>>
> >>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans 
> >>> in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible?
> >>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> >>>
> >>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in 
> >>> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and 
> >>> public
> services.
> >>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and 
> >>> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
> >>> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe
> >>> .o
> >>> rg
> >>> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6e
> >>> f4
> >>> 08
> >>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2i
> >>> FC
> >>> sX
> >>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d<
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.
> >>> ka
> >>> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c
> >>> 23
> >>> 00
> >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> >>> a= KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first 
> >>> ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open source 
> >>> governance and technologies in China and Asia with over 50 
> >>> community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the gaps 
> >>> between the leading international
> >> OSS communities, like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China.
> >> The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, 
> >> thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another
> roadshow in China.
> >>>
> >>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by 
> >>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with 
> >>> ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett 
> >>> Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. 
> >>> Please see more roadshow details here.
> >>>
> >>> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.
> >>> ap
> >>> ac
> >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c
> >>> 23
> >>> 00
> >>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> >>> a=
> >>> m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.
> >>> ap
> >>> ac
> >>> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa
> >>> 4b
> >>> 8a
> >>> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdat
> >>> a= BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> >>> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft
> >>> wi
> >>> tt
> >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%
> >>> 40
> >>> 06
> >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf
> >>> 86
> >>> f1
> >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU3
> >>> 7C
> >>> Wt
> >>> EOXwqg%3d<
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ft
> >>> wi
> >>> tt
> >>> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%
> >>> 40
> >>> 06
> >>> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf
> >>> 86
> >>> f1
> >>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CW
> >>> hd
> >>> X0
> >>> GFRwPs%3d
> >>> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and archives)
> >>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> >>> -
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap
> >>> ac
> >>> he
> >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23008
> >>> 44
> >>> 57
> >>> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1
> >>> M4 gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> >>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fap
> >>> ac
> >>> he
> >>> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a3
> >>> 14
> >>> f8
> >>> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1D
> >>> dE AF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> >>> home page
> >>>
> >>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a 
> >>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended 
> >>> this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time 
> >>> or were unaware of the events. So far, there already are many 
> >>> volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, committers, 
> >>> contributors, developers and users, who are willing to join the 
> >>> China community steering committee and working groups to help grow 
> >>> the talents, projects and community in China and bridge between 
> >>> ASF and the fans in
> >> China following the Apache way.
> >>>
> >>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans 
> >>> in China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev 
> >>> would be greatly appreciated.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ted Liu
> >>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding 
> >>> member of KAIYUANSHE
> >>
>
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