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From Ted Dunning <>
Subject Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 10:14:11 GMT


It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening. 

There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere. 

What exactly do you want to happen?

What good thing is not happening?

What bad thing is happening?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu <> wrote:
> Hi Niclas, 
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at ASF instead
of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a community, group or alike in China comes
from the grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody
would care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why a group of
Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together voluntarily
to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The
motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the experienced
Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of any individual
new to ASF.
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult it is to learn
Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent example is that literally no one from
the Apache Fans Wechat social group (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English,
to hold a technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your location in Shanghai
do not automatically translate into trust and effective communication to enable and motivate
people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger generation
contributors would not tolerate.
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of community, governance,
contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough
good codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language
and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China community/group can contribute.
> Ted
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niclas Hedhman [] 
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
> Ted,
> 2 things...
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But the ASF and
many other open source projects are not command&control driven top-down structures. So,
there is very little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in Beijing grasped that
idea very well, whereas the somewhat older generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting
to build it like a company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that you
can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly differently.
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I have first hand
witnessed the improvements in online translation services in the past few years. Enormous
improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge
this gap.
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, hacking, presentations
are conducted, by the participants, for the participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache
doesn't need to be formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors would
be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin
off both projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other projects.
> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of single big one.
> Keep up the positive work.
> Niclas
>> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <> wrote:
>> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
>> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache fans in 
>> China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev be possible? 
>> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
>> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in China, 
>> such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and public services.
>> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and communities 
>> and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
>> (
>> &
>> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4CJ2iFCsX
>> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d< 
>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=KN
>> IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the first ground-up 
>> open source alliance chartered to promote open source governance and 
>> technologies in China and Asia with over 50 community and enterprise 
>> members now) wish to bridge the gaps between the leading international OSS communities,
like ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. The last Apache roadshow was on 2009 in
Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, thought it'd be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another
roadshow in China.
>> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized by 
>> KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing with ASF's 
>> community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e. Brett Porter, David 
>> Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and Jason Dai. Please see more 
>> roadshow details here.
>> - ASF "Foundation" blog 
>> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=m1
>> ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
>> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=BX
>> 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
>> - @TheASF Twitter feed
>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ikWU37CWt
>> EOXwqg%3d< 
>> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC7CWhdX0
>> GFRwPs%3d
>> -<> (and archives)
>> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
>> - 
>> .org%2f&
>> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH1M4gu
>> 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
>> .org%2f&
>> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=F1DdEAF
>> N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
>> home page
>> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to form a 
>> China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who attended this 
>> roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not have time or were 
>> unaware of the events. So far, there already are many volunteers, 
>> including Apache members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
>> developers and users, who are willing to join the China community 
>> steering committee and working groups to help grow the talents, 
>> projects and community in China and bridge between ASF and the fans in China following
the Apache way.
>> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache fans in 
>> China or how to form a new China-specific project at the ComDev would 
>> be greatly appreciated.
>> Ted Liu
>> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding member of 

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