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From Hervé BOUTEMY <herve.bout...@free.fr>
Subject Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community
Date Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:11:09 GMT
then IMHO some chinese speaking people should start writing a little 
introduction on community.apache.org, like newcomers [1], newbiefaq [2]

IIRC, any ASF committer can edit the site

once a few pages are available, then they could be referenced from classical 
english site and we can work on creating a chinese-language mailing list

That's how I see the process, but I won't be able to do anything about it, 
since I don't speak chinese :)
(and I don't think there is such a strong need for a french equivalent)

Regards,

Hervé

[1] http://community.apache.org/newcomers/

[2] http://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 13:53:03 Ted Liu a écrit :
> Thank Niclas and Hervé, It is excited to see the great ideas to start with.
> If needed, we can help crowdsource for contributions in China and it is
> very likely to excite and attract many talented young people to contribute.
> 
 
> Other than the great content, email list, webpage, etc., we can also help
> from user experience side, such as pages in Chinese for mobile or a Wechat
> public account for news, blogs publishing or other services, and social
> interactions thru Wechat or QQ, such as allowing any Chinese Apache fans to
> retweet and socialize great articles. 
 
> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is used
> by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information. This
> is a very effective China-specific scenario.
 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr] 
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:56 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
 
> thinking more about it
> 
> Imagine:
> - a few localized pages in
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org&dat
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7
> pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d about tooling, culture and so on + mailing list to
> interact
 - as a first step, previous localized team could provide a little
> localized page to  each classical TLP (managed primarily in english) to
> explain the purpose of the TLP and how they can contact localized
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.org&dat
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqqO0quW2NRyF45mpfx7
> pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d to get help to interact with the TLP 
> IMHO, it's not about translating everything in every TLP: it's about putting
> in every TLP  (starting with
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org&data=01%7
> c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f
> 988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn0zU%2fKsXoeT
> kFfi3ED5k%3d and
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org&dat
> a=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7
> %7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHjEmc7jGf7xoXS
> RA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d) a localized pointer to localized helpers in
> community.apache.org.
 
> Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more
> translations on some TLPs.
 
> Then +1 to creating china@community.apache.org +
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.a
> pache.org%2fchina.html&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c373953
> 5c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=OlA9
> hXKy5wFT2z%2fPNWm%2f%2fRl%2bLcCLvKxI7DwDoZVYvsE%3d to explain the concept
> And probably
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.a
> pache.org%2finternational.html&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%
> 7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sd
> ata=o%2bhr%2b0B77v2nXFdQsAoby8ISqKHYky4i5Sluma9ViyE%3d to point to every
> localization where this process is started
 
> Notice: instead of "china" = a country name in english, we should name it
> after language: ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choice
 
> IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hervé
> 
> Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> 
> > I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is enough 
> > energy for it.
> > 
> > There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the 
> > projects themselves;
> > 
> >   a.
> >   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org&data=
> >   01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9
> >   d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79VJYn
> >   0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
 b.
> >   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.org
> >   &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2
> >   f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ZvN%2ftVv2eINlLZHj
> >   Emc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d c.
> > 
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.or
> > g&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2310010
> > 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqq
> > O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> > 
> > As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text format, 
> > and should be relatively easy to get going page by page, and I am sure 
> > Infrastructure will be able to let us know where to put it, and link 
> > it into the user experience "somehow".
> > 
> > That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work, 
> > especially since I think peer review is very important, since language 
> > matters for policy and such.
> > 
> > *I* am also very positive to alternate language 
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apache.or
> > g&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2310010
> > 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fZti2MXsNqq
> > O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> > mailing lists. china@community.apache.org could be a start, and from 
> > there it should be possible to gauge the interest.
> > 
> > For the rest of ComDev; I was added to the WeChat (a Chinese 
> > WhatsApp-like
> > app) group that is now 360 people. If the chatter there could be 
> > directed to china@community.apache.org, we would possibly have a 
> > semi-busy list from the start.
> > 
> > 
> > Niclas
> > 
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, agreed. We can help motivate people, maybe crowdsourcing, here 
> > > to help translate. But need to consider what contents and a 
> > > streamline user experience.  Ted
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 7:00 PM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > > China Community
> > > 
> > > Localized content is a great suggestion.
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.boutemy@free.fr]
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > > China Community
> > > 
> > > I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or 
> > > India or "country of your choice" people interested in Open Source 
> > > but not able currently because of language and cultural barriers for 
> > > masses
> > > 
> > > But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming 
> > > something completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP:
> > > staying short, I'm not convinced
> > > 
> > > What about creating localized content in 
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunit
> > > y.
> > > apache.org%2f&data=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780
> > > a87344
> > > cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1Rvs
> > > CGO3%2 fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d , pointing to 
> > > dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on explaining 
> > > community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
> > > with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?
> > > 
> > > Because I don't see:
> > > - how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
> > > - how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I 
> > > can say it because I'm not native english: english language is our 
> > > minimum common convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )
> > > 
> > > But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects 
> > > (taking the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted 
> > > at helping people work with other TLPs
> > > 
> > > WDYT?
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Hervé
> > > 
> > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> > > 
> > > > Ted,
> > > > 
> > > > It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> > > > 
> > > > There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> > > > 
> > > > What exactly do you want to happen?
> > > > 
> > > > What good thing is not happening?
> > > > 
> > > > What bad thing is happening?
> > > > 
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Niclas,
> > > > > 
> > > > > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> > > > > formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> > > > > forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> > > > > grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here.
> > > > > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> > > > > directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members,

> > > > > PMC members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work 
> > > > > together voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the 
> > > > > Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation 
> > > > > and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from 
> > > > > the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and 
> > > > > contributors, who people will trust,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > instead of any individual new to ASF.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> > > > > difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai.
> > > > > One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans

> > > > > Wechat social group
> > > > > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold

> > > > > a technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of 
> > > > > your location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into 
> > > > > trust and effective communication to enable and motivate 
> > > > > people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an 
> > > > > unknown that younger generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the 
> > > > > sense of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way 
> > > > > are still at infant stage in China. There are more than enough 
> > > > > good codes and events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The

> > > > > real blockers are language and non-Apache-Way culture where the 
> > > > > proposed China community/group can contribute.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ted
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedhman@gmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - 
> > > > > Apache China Community
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ted,
> > > > > 2 things...
> > > > > 
> > > > > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating 
> > > > > organization. But the ASF and many other open source projects 
> > > > > are not command&control driven top-down structures. So, there
is 
> > > > > very little "need" for "creation of communities". They either 
> > > > > form, or they
> > > 
> > > 
> > > don't.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow 
> > > > > in Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat 
> > > > > older generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to 
> > > > > build it like a company, like a government or a religious 
> > > > > organization. I hope that you can appreciate the difference and 
> > > > > channel your enthusiasm
> > > 
> > > 
> > > slightly differently.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, 
> > > > > but I have first hand witnessed the improvements in online 
> > > > > translation services in the past few years. Enormous 
> > > > > improvement. Perhaps we are soon at a stage where this can be an

> > > > > additional tool to bridge this
> > > 
> > > 
> > > gap.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> > > > > hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for 
> > > > > the participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't 
> > > > > need to be formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache 
> > > > > contributors would be happy to participate, as peers, in such 
> > > > > events/clubs. And I am convinced this will spin off both 
> > > > > projects as well as dieect contribution to ASF and other projects.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead 
> > > > > of single big one.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Keep up the positive work.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Niclas
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" <tedl@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> Hi Apache Community Development PMC,
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> Wish to get some advices on how to form a community of Apache

> > > > >> fans in China. Would a new China-specific project at the ComDev

> > > > >> be
> > > 
> > > 
> > > possible?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > >> Please see the background and thoughts outlined below.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> Apache projects and technologies have been widely adopted in

> > > > >> China, such as Alibaba, Tencent, many enterprises, academic and

> > > > >> public
> > > 
> > > 
> > > services.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > >> However, there has been little engagement between ASF and 
> > > > >> communities and enterprises in China. We, at KAIYUANSHE 
> > > > >> (https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.kaiyuanshe.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> org
> > > > >> &data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457
> > > > >> b6ef
> > > > >> 408
> > > > >> d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=c9Ihr4C
> > > > >> J2iF
> > > > >> CsX
> > > > >> asJ0NpZBeqxTGgpQ638b2fQFrfo1Y%3d< 
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > > >> fwww
> > > > >> .ka
> > > > >> iyuanshe.org&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d
> > > > >> 98c2
> > > > >> 300
> > > > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > > >> data =KN IsmJKqH2jG993HWWcVyKGZluqQVmuBHqxi7RC1YeM%3d>, the

> > > > >> first ground-up open source alliance chartered to promote open

> > > > >> source governance and technologies in China and Asia with over

> > > > >> 50 community and enterprise members now) wish to bridge the 
> > > > >> gaps between the leading international OSS communities, like

> > > > >> ASF, and communities and enterprises in China. The last Apache

> > > > >> roadshow was on 2009 in Shanghai. We, KAIYUANSHE, thought it'd

> > > > >> be good to reboot the ASF engagement through another roadshow

> > > > >> in China.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> The Apache Roadshow 2015 - China with KAIYUANSHE was organized

> > > > >> by KAIYUANSHE and successfully held on Oct. 24-25 in Beijing

> > > > >> with ASF's community sponsorship and keynoters support, i.e.

> > > > >> Brett Porter, David Nalley, Niclas Hedhman, J. Aaron Farr and
Jason
> > > > >> Dai.
> > > > >> Please see more roadshow details here.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> - ASF "Foundation" blog
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > > >> fs.a
> > > > >> pac
> > > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d
> > > > >> 98c2
> > > > >> 300
> > > > >> 84457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > > >> data
> > > > >> =m1 ntBhqGqxvgjfBnautwrBf1oKnIc6dyi6j31fjP6xo%3d<
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > > >> fs.a
> > > > >> pac
> > > > >> he.org%2fq2L&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407
> > > > >> aaa4
> > > > >> b8a
> > > > >> 314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&s
> > > > >> data =BX 9JYQC1f13QXPZwKSGBm6%2bwC2D%2fn1%2bcOoq3rIQTwsw%3d
> > > > >> - @TheASF Twitter feed
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%
> > > > >> 2ftw
> > > > >> itt
> > > > >> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7cte
> > > > >> dl%4
> > > > >> 006
> > > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c230084457b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f98
> > > > >> 8bf8
> > > > >> 6f1
> > > > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=qdet9%2bbJFQOho188838TnlA09W09ik
> > > > >> WU37
> > > > >> CWt
> > > > >> EOXwqg%3d<
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%
> > > > >> 2ftw
> > > > >> itt
> > > > >> er.com%2fTheASF%2fstatus%2f664920266397646848&data=01%7c01%7cte
> > > > >> dl%4
> > > > >> 006
> > > > >> 4d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b8a314f85dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f98
> > > > >> 8bf8
> > > > >> 6f1
> > > > >> 41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=l6exPHzOHmI56%2bicv2MCtaEPkCHpdC
> > > > >> 7CWh
> > > > >> dX0
> > > > >> GFRwPs%3d
> > > > >> - announce@apache.org<mailto:announce@apache.org> (and

> > > > >> archives)
> > > > >> - ASF dedicated media/analyst list
> > > > >> -
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > > >> fapa
> > > > >> che
> > > > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7cf7d98c23
> > > > >> 0084
> > > > >> 457
> > > > >> b6ef408d2f241b3ef%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=
> > > > >> eH1M 4gu 2moPKLElh97xM7CgxgSEbM9O3JZDqk1AxfEU%3d<
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > > > >> fapa
> > > > >> che
> > > > >> .org%2f&data=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c407aaa4b
> > > > >> 8a31
> > > > >> 4f8
> > > > >> 5dc0a08d2ebd3057d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=
> > > > >> F1Dd EAF N4EWnlKMlYZkPfa2izrtPwulToBHZcpf%2b0O4%3d>
> > > > >> home page
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> After the roadshow, we have received tremendous requests to 
> > > > >> form a China community to keep engaging with 5000+ audience who

> > > > >> attended this roadshow and tens of thousands people who did not

> > > > >> have time or were unaware of the events. So far, there already

> > > > >> are many volunteers, including Apache members, PMC members, 
> > > > >> committers, contributors, developers and users, who are willing

> > > > >> to join the China community steering committee and working 
> > > > >> groups to help grow the talents, projects and community in 
> > > > >> China and bridge between ASF and the fans in China following
the
> > > > >> Apache way.
 
> > > > >> Any feedback or advice on how to form a community of Apache 
> > > > >> fans in China or how to form a new China-specific project at

> > > > >> the ComDev would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >> Ted Liu
> > > > >> Co-organizer of the Apache Roadshow 2015 - China Co-founding

> > > > >> member of KAIYUANSHE
> 
> 


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