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From: "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
To: "dev@community.apache.org" <dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
 Better specifying....)
Thread-Topic: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
 Better specifying....)
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Almost every board resolution to create a project contains...

RESOLVED, that the initial PROJECT PMC be and hereby is
  tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
  encourage open development and increased participation in the
  PROJECT; and be it further

-----Original Message-----
From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargulies@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2015 4:13 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off o=
f Better specifying....)

Writing as someone who has mentored a squad of podlings, I do not believe t=
hat there is any requirement for any project to ever adopt any bylaws at al=
l. I was never involved where the board ask for bylaws, and I'm faintly cur=
ious as to how that ever came to pass. The normal process is for podlings t=
o simply apply standard ASF procedures to manage code and community. I view=
 the Foundation CoC as part of that.

In fact, I told at least one podling that bylaws are a faint smell of troub=
le -- if you have enough conflict to feel the need to write down the rules,=
 you might do better working out the reason for the conflict than writing d=
own the rules.

However, I recognized that some communities have some inescapable stresses =
due to conflicting commercial interests, and some bylaws early can be a way=
 to head off drama later.

However, I can't imagine anyone thinking that the Foundation CoC fails to a=
pply in the absence of a set of bylaws. I also can't imagine any person thi=
nking that a set of bylaws that doesn't happen to mention the CoC somehow e=
xcludes it. Project are part of the ASF. They don't have independent legal =
existence. Their 'bylaws' are not corporate, legal, bylaws, they are just a=
 memorialization of their policies. They don't have to be comprehensive.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to=20
> the official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the=20
> bylaws is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his=20
> assumption? Or does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and =
he is right?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>
>> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere=20
>> as a part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, w=
here?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <=20
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: =FD7/=FD4/=FD2015 3:35 PM
>>> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF=20
>>> (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>>
>>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects=20
>>> (at least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier=20
>>> posting) to establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding=20
>>> clause for being a project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be=20
>>> derived from that is that the project that don't comply can't be an=20
>>> Apache project until that condition is met.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for Cloud-=20
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail & Trade=20
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <=20
>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if=20
>>> > the
>>> Apache
>>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in=20
>>> > the spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that proje=
ct.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > ________________________________
>>> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: =FD7/=FD4/=FD2015 3:16 PM
>>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF=20
>>> > (spin-off of Better specifying....)
>>> >
>>> > Off list?
>>> >
>>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't distill=20
>>> > anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>>> >
>>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to=20
>>> > the community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the=20
>>> > Community over
>>> Code
>>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Pierre
>>> >
>>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <=20
>>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com=20
>>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>>> volgende
>>> > geschreven:
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct=20
>>> > > was
>>> not
>>> > > kind here.
>>> > >
>>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing=20
>>> > > paperwork
>>> (or
>>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN=20
>>> > > TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>>> > > Sent: =FD7/=FD4/=FD2015 10:08 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>>> (spin-off
>>> > > of Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading=20
>>> > > passport
>>> (our
>>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>>> > situations
>>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>>> default
>>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to=20
>>> > > write
>>> > code
>>> > > instead.
>>> > >
>>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the=20
>>> > > spirit
>>> of
>>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the=20
>>> > > PMC
>>> (and
>>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the=20
>>> > > documentation
>>> is
>>> > > there. E.g.
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model
>>> .html
>>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>> > >
>>> > > Ross
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>> > > Sent: =FD7/=FD4/=FD2015 9:34 AM
>>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF=20
>>> > > (spin-off
>>> of
>>> > > Better specifying....)
>>> > >
>>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing=20
>>> > > >> office
>>> > policing
>>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it=20
>>> > > >> in
>>> their
>>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not=20
>>> > > >> to
>>> > > incorporate
>>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>>> > > >>
>>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to=20
>>> > > > make
>>> sure
>>> > > that
>>> > > > exactly this happened.
>>> > >
>>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the=20
>>> > > board for
>>> > this
>>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA=20
>>> > > podling reported working on a project set of bylaws, which=20
>>> > > without knowing
>>> > details
>>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked=20
>>> > > also at
>>> the
>>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>>> graduating
>>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of=20
>>> > > bylaws or
>>> > not.
>>> > >
>>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of=20
>>> > > conduct of
>>> the
>>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today -=20
>>> > > that
>>> IPMC
>>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that=20
>>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that=20
>>> > > they consider it optional.
>>> > >
>>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan=20
>>> > > till
>>> May
>>> > is
>>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as=20
>>> > > a
>>> TLP)
>>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to=20
>>> > > now
>>> those
>>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache=20
>>> > > Aurora,
>>> > Apache
>>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a=20
>>> > > set
>>> of
>>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>>> > >
>>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects=20
>>> > > has
>>> led to
>>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making=20
>>> > > it
>>> harder
>>> > to
>>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while=20
>>> > > being
>>> under
>>> > the
>>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct=20
>>> > > and the Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how=20
>>> > > the
>>> contributors
>>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to=20
>>> > > favour
>>> a
>>> > > few....
>>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>>> defining
>>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about=20
>>> > > how the project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of=20
>>> > > contributors visavis privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair=
).
>>> > >
>>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in=20
>>> > > the projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't=20
>>> > > the board
>>> keep
>>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>>> > project's
>>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>>> > >
>>> > > Best regards,
>>> > >
>>> > > Pierre Smits
>>> > >
>>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for=20
>>> > > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &=20
>>> > > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <=20
>>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Hi,
>>> > > >
>>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few=20
>>> > > > paragraphs
>>> of
>>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > -Bertrand
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz=20
>>> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** This code of=20
>>> > > > > conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache Software=20
>>> > > > > Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing=20
>>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other=20
>>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of=20
>>> > > > > conduct
>>> > which
>>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is=20
>>> > > > > codified in
>>> the
>>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who=20
>>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,=20
>>> > > > > or
>>> > claims
>>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any=20
>>> > > > > Foundation-related activities and especially when representing =
the ASF, in any role.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from=20
>>> > > > > here
>>> on)
>>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Pierre Smits
>>> >
>>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* Services & Solutions for=20
>>> > Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail &=20
>>> > Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>