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From jan i <j...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:17:29 GMT
On Sunday, July 5, 2015, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
> official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
> is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
> does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?


I did not mean that a oodling should create its own bylaws, but simply use
default and follow the ASF bylaws. Bylaws in projects should be (and are)
an exception.

rgds
jan i

>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
> > part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> >> of Better specifying....)
> >>
> >> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
> >> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
> >> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
> >> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
> >> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
> >> condition is met.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Pierre Smits
> >>
> >> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> Services and Retail & Trade
> >> http://www.orrtiz.com
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> >> Apache
> >> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> >> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
> >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of
> >> > Better specifying....)
> >> >
> >> > Off list?
> >> >
> >> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> >> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >> >
> >> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> >> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
> >> Code
> >> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> >
> >> > Pierre
> >> >
> >> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <javascript:;>
> >> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;>');>> het
> >> volgende
> >> > geschreven:
> >> >
> >> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
> >> not
> >> > > kind here.
> >> > >
> >> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing
> paperwork
> >> (or
> >> > > the electronic equivalent).
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > > ________________________________
> >> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
> >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> >> (spin-off
> >> > > of Better specifying....)
> >> > >
> >> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
> >> (our
> >> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> >> > situations
> >> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
> >> default
> >> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to
> write
> >> > code
> >> > > instead.
> >> > >
> >> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
> >> of
> >> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
> >> (and
> >> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the
> documentation
> >> is
> >> > > there. E.g.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> >> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> >> > >
> >> > > Ross
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> > > ________________________________
> >> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
> >> > > To: dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@community.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> >> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> >> of
> >> > > Better specifying....)
> >> > >
> >> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing
office
> >> > policing
> >> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill
it in
> >> their
> >> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not
to
> >> > > incorporate
> >> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> >> > > >>
> >> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to
make
> >> sure
> >> > > that
> >> > > > exactly this happened.
> >> > >
> >> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board
> for
> >> > this
> >> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA
> podling
> >> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> >> > details
> >> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> >> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also
> at
> >> the
> >> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> >> graduating
> >> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws
> or
> >> > not.
> >> > >
> >> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct
> of
> >> the
> >> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> >> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
> >> IPMC
> >> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> >> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> >> > > consider it optional.
> >> > >
> >> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till
> >> May
> >> > is
> >> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
> >> TLP)
> >> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
> >> those
> >> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> >> > Apache
> >> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> >> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set
> >> of
> >> > > bylaws at all by the board.
> >> > >
> >> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
> >> led to
> >> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> >> harder
> >> > to
> >> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> >> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
> >> under
> >> > the
> >> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and
> the
> >> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
> >> contributors
> >> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to
> favour
> >> a
> >> > > few....
> >> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> >> defining
> >> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how
> the
> >> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> >> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> >> > >
> >> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> >> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
> >> keep
> >> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> >> > project's
> >> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> >> > >
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > >
> >> > > Pierre Smits
> >> > >
> >> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> >> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> >> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few
> paragraphs
> >> of
> >> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -Bertrand
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> >> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the
Apache
> >> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private
> mailing
> >> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> >> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of
conduct
> >> > which
> >> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified
> in
> >> the
> >> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone
who
> >> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,
or
> >> > claims
> >> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> >> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in
any
> role.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from
here
> >> on)
> >> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Pierre Smits
> >> >
> >> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> >> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> >> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> >> > Services and Retail & Trade
> >> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>


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