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From Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sat, 04 Jul 2015 22:53:11 GMT
Then again, Jan stated that he thought that instilling compliance to the
official ASF policies, or expressions of deviation thereof, in the bylaws
is a part of the incubation process. Is he wrong with his assumption? Or
does the incubator project have it mixed up somewhere and he is right?

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:46 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
> part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>> of Better specifying....)
>>
>> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
>> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
>> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
>> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
>> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
>> condition is met.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
>> Apache
>> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
>> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
>> >
>> > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
>> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
>> > Better specifying....)
>> >
>> > Off list?
>> >
>> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
>> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
>> >
>> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
>> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over
>> Code
>> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
>> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
>> volgende
>> > geschreven:
>> >
>> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was
>> not
>> > > kind here.
>> > >
>> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
>> > >
>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork
>> (or
>> > > the electronic equivalent).
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > > ________________________________
>> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
>> (spin-off
>> > > of Better specifying....)
>> > >
>> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
>> (our
>> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
>> > situations
>> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the
>> default
>> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
>> > code
>> > > instead.
>> > >
>> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit
>> of
>> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
>> (and
>> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
>> > >
>> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation
>> is
>> > > there. E.g.
>> > >
>> >
>> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
>> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>> > >
>> > > Ross
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
>> > > ________________________________
>> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
>> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
>> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
>> of
>> > > Better specifying....)
>> > >
>> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
>> > policing
>> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
>> their
>> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
>> > > incorporate
>> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
>> > > >>
>> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
>> sure
>> > > that
>> > > > exactly this happened.
>> > >
>> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
>> > this
>> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
>> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
>> > details
>> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
>> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at
>> the
>> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
>> graduating
>> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
>> > not.
>> > >
>> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of
>> the
>> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
>> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
>> IPMC
>> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
>> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
>> > > consider it optional.
>> > >
>> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till
>> May
>> > is
>> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a
>> TLP)
>> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
>> those
>> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
>> > Apache
>> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
>> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set
>> of
>> > > bylaws at all by the board.
>> > >
>> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has
>> led to
>> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
>> harder
>> > to
>> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
>> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being
>> under
>> > the
>> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
>> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the
>> contributors
>> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour
>> a
>> > > few....
>> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
>> defining
>> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
>> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
>> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
>> > >
>> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
>> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
>> keep
>> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
>> > project's
>> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Pierre Smits
>> > >
>> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> > > Services and Retail & Trade
>> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> > > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi,
>> > > >
>> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs
>> of
>> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
>> > > >
>> > > > -Bertrand
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
>> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
>> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
>> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
>> > which
>> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified
in
>> the
>> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
>> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally,
or
>> > claims
>> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
>> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here
>> on)
>> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pierre Smits
>> >
>> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> > Services and Retail & Trade
>> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>> >
>>
>
>

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