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From Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of Better specifying....)
Date Sat, 04 Jul 2015 22:46:16 GMT
Is that just your opinion? Or something that is documented elsewhere as a
part of the rules of the game for projects of the ASF? And if so, where?

Best regards,


Pierre Smits

*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:

> In the absence of bye-laws the defaults apply.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:35 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of Better specifying....)
>
> How can that be? The board of the ASF explicitly tasks the projects (at
> least those that I have seen, as mentioned in my earlier posting) to
> establish a set of bylaws. That sounds like a binding clause for being a
> project of the ASF. The conclusion that can be derived from that is that
> the project that don't comply can't be an Apache project until that
> condition is met.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > No I said if projects don't write bye-laws then the defaults if the
> Apache
> > Way apply. If they have local bye-laws they are expected to be in the
> > spirit of the Apache Way but tuned to the specifics of that project.
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 3:16 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off of
> > Better specifying....)
> >
> > Off list?
> >
> > I am sure that quite a few more than just I couldn't
> > distill anything insightful or meaningful from your alrgument.
> >
> > So are we to understand that doing the right thing with respect to the
> > community is pushing paperwork? Doesn't that make the Community over Code
> > aspect of the Apache Way nothing more than a hollow phrase?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Op zaterdag 4 juli 2015 heeft Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>> het
> volgende
> > geschreven:
> >
> > > Sorry rushing and as has been pointed out off list auto-correct was not
> > > kind here.
> > >
> > > First sentence is unparseable so here it is again:
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not pushing paperwork
> (or
> > > the electronic equivalent).
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)<mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 10:08 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF
> (spin-off
> > > of Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > The ASF is about doing the right thing in code, not loading passport
> (our
> > > the electronic equivalent). There are default position for most
> > situations
> > > in a project. In the absence of project specific exceptions the default
> > > applies. Most projects are happy with the default and prefer to write
> > code
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > Where a project has local exceptions they must conform to the spirit of
> > > the Apache Way. If they don't then the community can turn to the PMC
> (and
> > > if necessary the board) to address areas of concern.
> > >
> > > It's always possible to better document things, but the documentation
> is
> > > there. E.g.
> > >
> >
> http://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html
> > > and http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Pierre Smits<mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: ‎7/‎4/‎2015 9:34 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Incubating, Graduating & Code of conduct @ The ASF (spin-off
> of
> > > Better specifying....)
> > >
> > > >> Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office
> > policing
> > > >> it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in
> their
> > > >> bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to
> > > incorporate
> > > >> it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement,
> > > >>
> > > > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make
> sure
> > > that
> > > > exactly this happened.
> > >
> > > Having done a cursory review of the incubator reports to the board for
> > this
> > > year (January till May/June 2015), I found that only the SAMOA podling
> > > reported working on a project set of bylaws, which without knowing
> > details
> > > could encompass and/or incorporate the code of conduct.
> > > None of the other podlings reported about that. Having looked also at
> the
> > > board reports for January up to May 2015 I found that podlings
> graduating
> > > to TLP were either tasked by the board to establish a set of bylaws or
> > not.
> > >
> > > This tells me that acceptance/incorporation of the code of conduct of
> the
> > > ASF by the podlings is not a requirement.
> > > It might also mean - given the code of conduct as it is today - that
> IPMC
> > > members (as mentors) are either not fully aware that
> > > acceptance/incorporation is part of incubation process, or that they
> > > consider it optional.
> > >
> > > What I also observed from the board reports (minutes) from Jan till May
> > is
> > > that while graduating podlings (as part of their establisment as a TLP)
> > > where tasked by the board to create a set of bylaws, that up to now
> those
> > > projects (Apache Whimsy, Apache Orc, Apache Parquet, Apache Aurora,
> > Apache
> > > Zest) don't reference anything about a set of bylaws.
> > > And one graduating (Apache Samza) was not tasked with creating a set of
> > > bylaws at all by the board.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this viewpoint of flexibility for projects has led
> to
> > > various approaches applied during the incubation phase. Making it
> harder
> > to
> > > tell a unified story to the outside world...
> > > The Code of Conduct affects more the community aspect while being under
> > the
> > > umbrella of the ASF than the code aspect. The Code of Conduct and the
> > > Apache Way (community over code) is foremost about how the contributors
> > > interact. About how to do just to all contributors, not how to favour a
> > > few....
> > > The bylaws of a project should reflect how that is done, meaning
> defining
> > > the rules regarding procedural matters (which culminates about how the
> > > project deals with onboarding and ofboarding of contributors visavis
> > > privileges - commit privileges, PMC, PMC Chair).
> > >
> > > And shouldn't the VP of the project report back to the board, in the
> > > projects regular report, about the progress? And shouldn't the board
> keep
> > > track of what it has task the project to do, and/or check that a
> > project's
> > > bylaws doesn't conflict with the Code of Conduct or the Apache Way?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > > Services and Retail & Trade
> > > http://www.orrtiz.com
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > As there was no opposition I have modified the first few paragraphs
> of
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html as below.
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > > > <bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > > > This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache
> > > > > Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing
> > > > > lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other
> > > > > communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct
> > which
> > > > > is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in
> the
> > > > > published ASF anti-harassment policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who
> > > > > participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or
> > claims
> > > > > any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related
> > > > > activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role.
> > > > >
> > > > > This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on)
> > > > > *** reworked code of conduct intro section ***
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
> >
>

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